6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden? • Hacker News Board

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#61

Post by jabl » Sat, Sep 18, 2021, 7:35 AM UTC

It seems in Europe there is the general idea that with the USA waning as the sole superpower, and further with the USA more and more focused on great power competition with China [1] rather than partnering with Europe against the Soviet Union, Europe must take on more responsibility for its own defense. Including the capability to build top of the line high tech military gear like fighter jets.

Of course, the problem is how to convince European tax payers to part with the money necessary for this. Particularly as we already have two separate European projects to design next gen fighters, the UK-Italian-Swedish Tempest as well as the French-German-Spanish FCAS. Like herding cats.

I wonder what could be done to reduce the cost of developing a new top of the line fighter? More COTS components? A modular approach, which is certainly much more limited in scope in high-performance aircraft than e.g. in cars?

[1] As for China and Russia, interestingly it seems that China is poised to overtake Russia in combat aircraft development: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/whitehall...

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#62

Post by willvarfar » Sat, Sep 18, 2021, 7:35 AM UTC

nosianu wrote: post #43

tapland wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. So would drones with crazy ranges, speeds and ability to stop threats.

However, I would expect drones to be reusable and not of the self-destruct type like a cruise-missile, so that you get at least those drones back that were not shot down, and/or have them attack more than only a single target.

Sweden has reusable torpedos. Most torpedos can be tested, but Sweden’s are routinely testable and that’s a very different capability. And as the torpedos become more autonomous, they become drones that can act like torpedos if the opportunity presents.

Similar parallels can be drawn to the Iranian attack on Saudi refineries recently. The line between cruise missiles and drones blurred.

So, yes, there is a move towards cruise missiles being chassis you can task with routine intelligence gathering, picket etc and even launching stand-off ordinance.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#63

Post by davhandy » Sat, Sep 18, 2021, 7:35 AM UTC

anonuser123456 wrote: post #30

numpad0 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s called cruise missiles

Cruise missiles are like a million bucks a pop.

That sounds really cheap, source? I was expecting maybe 10m (still a drop in the ocean). At 1m a pop you can fire a 1000 a day a still only be at 1billion/day

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#64

Post by pasabagi » Sat, Sep 18, 2021, 7:36 AM UTC

snicker7 wrote: post #57

wombatmobile wrote: post #49

War is in part an expression of technological competitive advantage. Nth generation weaponry is expensive because technology requires the best minds, materials, and facilities that money can buy. But what if for the same money, or less, we could buy something even better? How much does peace cost? Has anybody ever costed it? For example, what could $2 trillion have bought in Iraq, Portland, or Jerusalem if it had bee…

The last 70 or so years have been the most peaceful in human history. How? The American military and economic hegemony. If you want peace, build more aircraft carriers.

I think it's more likely that WW1 and WW2 collectively persuaded even the most thick-headed of western elites that great power conflicts are bad for everyone, even the winners.

There's a reason why the french and the british were so reluctant to start WW2 - the first world war was completely devastating to their societies, and it didn't even improve their security, since Germany was able to relatively quickly rebuild and rearm.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#65

Post by kryptiskt » Sat, Sep 18, 2021, 7:36 AM UTC

spockz wrote: post #11

How is this affected by the new pact between US, UK, and Australia? The news here made it appears as that caused some bad blood between EU and the US/UK.

That doesn't affect the EU as a whole. Sweden is skeptical about giving EU that role anyway, they're working for closer strategic ties to the US, and have signed agreements to that effect. They already chose Patriot over a German/French project for air defense.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#66

Post by ganzuul » Sat, Sep 18, 2021, 7:38 AM UTC

jabl wrote: post #61

It seems in Europe there is the general idea that with the USA waning as the sole superpower, and further with the USA more and more focused on great power competition with China [1] rather than partnering with Europe against the Soviet Union, Europe must take on more responsibility for its own defense. Including the capability to build top of the line high tech military gear like fighter jets. Of course, the problem…

Don't be so eager to throw our tax money into this pit.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#67

Post by jabl » Sat, Sep 18, 2021, 7:39 AM UTC

neuronic wrote: post #53

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can decode this rant. The Zumwalt class started out as a requirement from the armed forces committee in congress for a replacement for the old battleship Naval Gunfire Support mission. That is sit a bit off the coast and go boom with big guns to help the boots on the ground. Just one wee little problem with that: anti ship missiles have made that a suicide mission since approximately the late 60s. And no, all the s…

Prime example of why military spending needs to be cut in half at least to focus on what's important. Not to weaken the military but to stop bullshit like this in its track.

Speaking of tracks, apparently production of M1 tanks is going at full pace, thanks to the factories being located in the districts of influential politicians. The military has no need for them though, so they are going straight to storage.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#68

Post by ganzuul » Sat, Sep 18, 2021, 7:39 AM UTC

wombatmobile wrote: post #49

War is in part an expression of technological competitive advantage. Nth generation weaponry is expensive because technology requires the best minds, materials, and facilities that money can buy. But what if for the same money, or less, we could buy something even better? How much does peace cost? Has anybody ever costed it? For example, what could $2 trillion have bought in Iraq, Portland, or Jerusalem if it had bee…

Violence is the last recourse of the incompetent.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#69

Post by ganzuul » Sat, Sep 18, 2021, 7:40 AM UTC

davhandy wrote: post #63

anonuser123456 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cruise missiles are like a million bucks a pop.

That sounds really cheap, source? I was expecting maybe 10m (still a drop in the ocean). At 1m a pop you can fire a 1000 a day a still only be at 1billion/day

How many millions do you have? I have none.

Re: 6th Generation Stealth Fighter: Joint Effort by UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden?

#70

Post by swarnie » Sat, Sep 18, 2021, 7:41 AM UTC

snicker7 wrote: post #57

wombatmobile wrote: post #49

War is in part an expression of technological competitive advantage. Nth generation weaponry is expensive because technology requires the best minds, materials, and facilities that money can buy. But what if for the same money, or less, we could buy something even better? How much does peace cost? Has anybody ever costed it? For example, what could $2 trillion have bought in Iraq, Portland, or Jerusalem if it had bee…

The last 70 or so years have been the most peaceful in human history. How? The American military and economic hegemony. If you want peace, build more aircraft carriers.

> The last 70 or so years have been the most peaceful in human history.

IRAQ WAR (2003-2011)

WAR IN AFGHANISTAN (2001-PRESENT)

GULF WAR (1990-1991)

VIETNAM WAR (1959-1975)

KOREAN WAR (1950-1953)

This is ignoring an entire array of coups, rebellions, brutal suppressions and subjugations encompassing basically every country in South America

The last 70 years have only seemed peaceful because your the one doing the genocide this time around. Most of the rest of the world would like you to chill.