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Buddha and Mind

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Re: Buddha and Mind

#61

Post by kranner »

lethologica wrote: post #11
chana_masala wrote: post #3

This is kind of unrelated but whenever discussions on meditation come up here, especially recently ones that have mentioned the dangers around it, I am reminded that my lineage stresses that meditation should not be undertaken until one has sufficient preparation with simpler practices, such as karma yoga (service orientated worship). The perspective is that if you start these practices before "calming down" (like be…

Could you please elaborate more on the dangers of meditation?

A recent book about it is "The Dark Side of Dharma: Meditation, Madness and Other Maladies on the Contemplative Path" by Anna Lutkajtis, based on her PhD research on the subject.

https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Dharma-Meditation-Contempla...

Re: Buddha and Mind

#62

Post by emacsen »

xelxebar wrote: post #54
emacsen wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a difficult topic because it's so fraught with misunderstanding and complexity, but I'd like to share a few thoughts, not all from the OP but from this topic in general. 1. Meditation as a tool for self-improvement Meditation, especially and specifically Buddhist meditation, has been sold to Westerners as a tool for self improvement for the purpose of "getting a leg up" and as another commenter pointed out, t…

> One of the paradoxes of Buddhism, but specifically Zen, is the idea that the practice teaches you to be able to handle enormous stress. Practioners [sic] are taught to stay in meditation through physical distress, through mental distress, even while being hit with sticks, etc. This is a form of training. Let me pick on this bit, because I have experience here. That sounds like a crappy, knockoff kind of zen. Any gr…

> That sounds like a crappy, knockoff kind of zen.

If it is, it's a long standing one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisaku

The stick is meant to "wake up" practioners but it's also used to help them learn to endure pain. But also, simply sitting in place for long periods can be painful- knee pain, lower back pain, etc. are common. Zen training is about letting of the need to react to it, accepting it and continuing, just as one learns to endure and not react to thoughts that arise, or emotions that come and go.

Re: Buddha and Mind

#63

Post by DennisP »

nestorD wrote: post #30
cwkoss wrote: post #24

"In meditative states, the monks had remarkable control over their body temperature and oxygen intake. They could use their body heat to dry wet towels placed around them, where most people would shiver uncontrollably. They could raise the temperature of their fingers and toes by as much as 17 degrees. Some could even spend a night on a rocky ledge at an elevation of 15,000 feet in the Himalayas, where temperatures f…

I have seen tummo meditation used by non-buddhist to raise their body temperature. With a little bit of practice you should be able to experiment with it yourself (one common recommendation: don't practice it in a warm room / wearing warm clothes).

I've never found clear instructions for tummo. How do you learn it?

Re: Buddha and Mind

#64

Post by [deleted] »

peter303 wrote: post #58
swayvil wrote: post #21

In Buddhism the term "Mind" refers to "Awareness" (aka attention, sati) What you direct when you pay attention. What you concentrate when you concentrate. What gets jerked around when you are distracted. (As opposed to "Mind", synonymous with "intellect", which is not what they mean. Call it a bad translation)

They have dozens of terms for states of mind and brain activity. Many are more precise than in western science.

[deleted]

Re: Buddha and Mind

#65

Post by bgroat »

Barrin92 wrote: post #48

Think the article is right in its diagnosis of mindfulness. Jack Dorsey going on a meditation retreat so he can go back and be even more productive at building the things that send everyone to meditation retreats has always been kind of funny to me. The trend to turn spiritual practices into some sort of self-help healthcare to me is honestly just abysmal. In many ways it is worse than just not doing them at all. C.S…

That's not strictly true, RE: Lewis. His opinion was even cooler.

Basically, Jesus was either: - A liar - A lunatic - The Lord

And any three of those is incredible and worth learning about.

He's either a crazy person who founded the most powerful organization in the history of human civilization.

A con artist who did the same thing.

Or literally god, and people are so cynical that ~75% don't believe it

Re: Buddha and Mind

#66

Post by bgroat »

chana_masala wrote: post #3

This is kind of unrelated but whenever discussions on meditation come up here, especially recently ones that have mentioned the dangers around it, I am reminded that my lineage stresses that meditation should not be undertaken until one has sufficient preparation with simpler practices, such as karma yoga (service orientated worship). The perspective is that if you start these practices before "calming down" (like be…

I have a bit of a backdoor experience into mindfulness through my background in lucid dreaming.

And I completely agree that people need to handle their psychic health before they go down these rabbit holes. Reality can get very fuzzy for anyone, let alone someone who's already depressive, manic, or dissociative.

Re: Buddha and Mind

#67

Post by mbg721 »

tokenpreneur wrote: post #7
chana_masala wrote: post #3

This is kind of unrelated but whenever discussions on meditation come up here, especially recently ones that have mentioned the dangers around it, I am reminded that my lineage stresses that meditation should not be undertaken until one has sufficient preparation with simpler practices, such as karma yoga (service orientated worship). The perspective is that if you start these practices before "calming down" (like be…

Worry not, for secular meditation does not get that far. Otherwise we'd have seen a psychosis pandemic vis-à-vis Calm.com's 40 million app installs.

That's aspirational meditation, it's like seeing how much people exercise by counting gym memberships.

Re: Buddha and Mind

#68

Post by Trasmatta »

carrolldunham wrote: post #59
Trasmatta wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My take is that "enlightenment" is a real state the brain can be in, and it can be invoked by meditation, or even spontaneously in some cases. But that this state may not actually have the level of impact on human behavior as many think it should. In the west we seem to correlate "enlightenment" with some level of "perfection", but I think that's actually pretty far removed from what many eastern traditions consider…

The behavioural expectations are explicit in all the Buddhist traditions. You're also mixing up a temporary state with what's supposed to be an irreversible permanent change of nature. Of course, the notion that the rigors of virtue are just part of 'social conditioning' that a meditator will slough off is deliciously tempting to people want to have their cake and eat it too. "Freedom from desire but oh, should one h…

My point wasn't "the West has it wrong, you have to dive into the Eastern traditions for the real answers". It was more, "it's really complicated in Eastern traditions already, and we've muddied the water even further by adding our own expectations and biases on top of that".

So what I mean is that some people, like Culudasa, probably experienced a brain state that might be called "enlightenment" in some contexts. But either we've been way oversold what that actually means, or he only reached one of the lower "stages of awakening" and hadn't yet fully, and permanently, abandoned all the fetters.

(I tend to think it's probably the former.)

Re: Buddha and Mind

#69

Post by krapp »

bgroat wrote: post #65
Barrin92 wrote: post #48

Think the article is right in its diagnosis of mindfulness. Jack Dorsey going on a meditation retreat so he can go back and be even more productive at building the things that send everyone to meditation retreats has always been kind of funny to me. The trend to turn spiritual practices into some sort of self-help healthcare to me is honestly just abysmal. In many ways it is worse than just not doing them at all. C.S…

That's not strictly true, RE: Lewis. His opinion was even cooler. Basically, Jesus was either: - A liar - A lunatic - The Lord And any three of those is incredible and worth learning about. He's either a crazy person who founded the most powerful organization in the history of human civilization. A con artist who did the same thing. Or literally god, and people are so cynical that ~75% don't believe it

>He's either a crazy person who founded the most powerful organization in the history of human civilization.

I'd argue Rome had a lot more to do with that than Jesus. If Emperor Constantine hadn't found Christians to be expedient to his own political ends, the religion would probably have remained a strictly local Jewish cult, or been stamped out by Rome altogether.

Re: Buddha and Mind

#70

Post by optimalsolver »

bgroat wrote: post #66
chana_masala wrote: post #3

This is kind of unrelated but whenever discussions on meditation come up here, especially recently ones that have mentioned the dangers around it, I am reminded that my lineage stresses that meditation should not be undertaken until one has sufficient preparation with simpler practices, such as karma yoga (service orientated worship). The perspective is that if you start these practices before "calming down" (like be…

I have a bit of a backdoor experience into mindfulness through my background in lucid dreaming. And I completely agree that people need to handle their psychic health before they go down these rabbit holes. Reality can get very fuzzy for anyone, let alone someone who's already depressive, manic, or dissociative.

>I have a bit of a backdoor experience into mindfulness through my background in lucid dreaming

Could you elaborate on this? How does it help?

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