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The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

technologyreview.com

61–70 of 267 posts

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#61
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay. But this is still an actual congressional testimony for public consumption by our elected officials. By what reasoning should we not be allowed to see it?

Blanket ban. Even mentioning coronavirus can get your video demonitized. YouTube and Facebook have a significant problem of actual artificial conspiracy theories that have contributed to real death.

You mentioned this twice. "Contributed to real death." What do you mean specifically? Don't just use it as a scare quote.

It's not a good enough justification anyway.

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#62
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should develop open source decentralized alternatives to it that are easy to use.

Honestly I think Mastodon is already about as easy to use as possible. The real problem is the network effect, and the fact that the average person really just doesn't care enough about the benefits you get from it. What we really need is a libre, decentralized social network that's "cool" enough that non-tech people would have FOMO if they don't join. That's a much harder problem, one that I certainly won't be able…

Maybe https://bitclout.com/

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#63
This article has a number of issues that jump out to me from just a cursory read.

The author admits that the NIH has a specific definition of "gain of function research" and then seems to go forward with the article using their own definition, without calling out that they're doing this. Why are they using their own definition instead of the NIH's?

The Chinese research this author cites claims that there are large reservoirs of virus's in bat populations that are currently able to cross into the human population with minimal, if any, mutation required. This makes a natural crossover event more likely compared to the lab-leak hypothesis. This point seems to escape the author entirely.

Next, this whole paragraph is a mess:

> The revelation that the WIV was working with SARS-like viruses in subpar safety conditions has led some people to reassess the chance that SARS-CoV-2 could have emerged from some type of laboratory incident. “That’s screwed up,” the Columbia University virologist Ian Lipkin, who coauthored the seminal paper arguing that covid must have had a natural origin, told the journalist Donald McNeil Jr. “It shouldn’t have happened. People should not be looking at bat viruses in BSL-2 labs. My view has changed.”

There are multiple topics that are being jumbled up. The surrounding context has been heavily discussing genetic engineering research. Ian Lipkin's paper discussed a virus with natural origins. The linked article is discussing the possibility of a lab-leak. These are all different topics and no attempt is being made here to distinguish and collate them. The linked article doesn't make it clear on whether Lipkin changed his view on the virus being of natural origin or of possibly being leaked from a lab or even something else.

In fact, this whole article can't seem to distinguish between the hypothesis of an engineered virus escaping a lab, and a naturally occurring virus escaping the lab. The article ends by belatedly admitting that Baric believes that a natural spillover is still the most likely explanation but devotes zero space to explaining why. Instead, the author sees fit to spend the rest of the article explaining why Baric thinks WIV should be investigated further.

To many of these lab leak articles are structured distressingly like a Q-drop: "Look at all these facts that I'm going to recite in a spooky tone of voice but not bother to synthesize into a coherent hypothesis. Isn't it spooky?" It's not clear to me if it's because the author is writing high-brow clickbait, is unable to recognize these flaws, or is deliberately trying to sling conspiracies. The lab leak hypothesis should be investigated, but not like this.

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#64

To think that a few months ago, sharing this article would have gotten someone banned from Facebook for sharing "conspiracy theories".

Because people are sharing actual conspiracy theories and killing others. So it's a blanket ban. How many people are so crazed and convinced that the vaccine makes you magnetic/sterile/whatever?

I grew up reading conspiracy theories, then met powerful people and realized (20 years ago) that conspiracy theories were implausible.

Then I worked with the IC and heard what intelligence agents said. Maybe they lied. Maybe they’re crazy. But combined with what happened in the last 18 months, and their statements, there is an acutely centralizer corrupt power which has ever bigger rings of corruption.

Which is normalized as it goes. Everyone does it! Politics as normal. Modern Neoliberalism and government revolving door.

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#65
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should develop open source decentralized alternatives to it that are easy to use.

Honestly I think Mastodon is already about as easy to use as possible. The real problem is the network effect, and the fact that the average person really just doesn't care enough about the benefits you get from it. What we really need is a libre, decentralized social network that's "cool" enough that non-tech people would have FOMO if they don't join. That's a much harder problem, one that I certainly won't be able…

None of us can solve it alone.

First we need good tech, like Mastodon.

Then we need to move our own digital "lives" onto those better platforms, and start encouraging our friends to join us.

For my part, I'm working on a new social app where everything is E2E encrypted [1], so you don't have to trust the server. The main use case is to let parents share photos of their kids in a safer way. I'm hoping this will be a big draw for people who have currently checked out of the creepy ad-tracking platforms.

[1] https://github.com/KombuchaPrivacy/circles-ios

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#66
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because people are sharing actual conspiracy theories and killing others. So it's a blanket ban. How many people are so crazed and convinced that the vaccine makes you magnetic/sterile/whatever?

Conspiracy theories are not harmful that kill people. This is an idea the media spread in the last little while to label non-approved opinions as harmful. Facebook decides to blank ban anything that hasn't been approved by gatekeepers and you approved because you are worried that people might hear on facebook that vaccines cause people to go sterile and not get one? Which one of these things is actually causing harm?…

It's not that they "might hear" it's that people in mass already believe in made up propaganda about coronavirus vaccines. The natural result being individuals at risk not getting them, and individuals not as at risk not getting them, resulting in more death and longer lockdowns.

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#67
post #20

To think that a few months ago, sharing this article would have gotten someone banned from Facebook for sharing "conspiracy theories".

That's because Facebook is full of bad actors sharing actual complete bullshit conspiracy theories, and the only thing a company like Facebook can possibly do is a make a "nothing that deviates too hard from the Official Line(tm) rule." Otherwise they have to get into the business of being some kind of scientific review board, which they are in no way equipped to do. Bad faith propaganda at the scale we have seen rec…

That crazy shit is only a problem because they built an algorithmic feed that automatically finds the most virulent bullshit, and then shows it to everyone it possibly can.

Drop the algorithmic feed, and you solve most of the problem. Unfortunately for Facebook, this would also cut their ad revenue, so they'll never do it.

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#68
post #27
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YouTube among with many other places are even now censoring it so acting like it's a Facebook problem is counter-productive.

So use Vimeo, Peertube, your own web site, ...

> your own web site

What about all those times internet infrastructure companies shut down the people who built their own website? Do you see the precedent that you're setting?

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#69
Much of the article reminds me of the description of how NASA ended up launching a shuttle in temperatures far below what they originally would have allowed. You walk just past the line, nothing bad happens, so you move the line a bit. You walk just past that line, nothing bad happens...and this repeats until, inevitably, eventually, something bad happens.

Regardless of whether or not this pandemic came from this lab, the industry incentives described in the article can only eventually result in one.

We have a mechanism for dealing with this sort of problem, and it involves outside audits. The "bad thing" involves being slapped down by an outside authority that has teeth behind its recommendations. In order to have authority in places like China, it would also need to have authority in places like the USA, which means a bunch of American (and European) scientists would see their own work get more difficult, as well. This has to make it more difficult for them to decide to think objectively about the possibility that this pandemic came from a lab.

Re: The risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan

#70

To think that a few months ago, sharing this article would have gotten someone banned from Facebook for sharing "conspiracy theories".

If you say someone committed murder with zero evidence to back it up it's wrong-- at that time-- even if evidence ends up coming out. You still had no basis for such a serious accusation and would still be irresponsible to throw the accusation around as "true".

Sometimes people make unfounded guesses based on little/no evidence. Just because it turns out to be correct doesn't mean those people were any more justified-- at that time-- in their unfounded accusations.

Of course a person is now justified, with evidence available, to make these claims. It doesn't mean those who made them baselessly out of suspicion and guesses any less irrational for doing so before there was evidence. Making unfounded accusations doesn't retroactively turn an irrational accusation into a reasonable one just because it turns out to be true.

It's also worth noting that this is still unproven: it doesn't look good for China, but there's nothing definitive yet.

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