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Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

theguardian.com

61–70 of 117 posts

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#61
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could rename myself to Presley, but it gives me no standing to Evlis' estate.

Correct. But actually being a direct descendant would, and that's what we're talking about here.

I think the word you are looking for is bloodline or pedigree.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#62
post #45
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was flagged, but I think mistakenly by people who think you're joking or taking a dig. The point is there weren't 70,000,000,000 people alive in Italy back then (or, you know, anywhere ever), so it is very likely that Dante shows up in multiple branches of this person's ancestry.

I am not sure that is a correct definition of incest, as it more commonly refer to breeding between family members or close relatives, with the definition of close being up to the legal system in place. Just two people with a common ancestry would be a too board definition to be useful. But it is correct that 1 / 70,000,000,000 is the wrong numbers of the genetic contribution. In order to find the correct number one…

You would also have to know whether adultery took place which resulted in a child and whether any of the 'descendants' were adopted. It would be less work to disinter Dante and compare the DNA directly.

Also, in fairness to the poster, incest was in quotes.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#63
post #48
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure? Italy has a lot of historical continuity. If you go to Rome, the manhole covers read SPQR (Senatus Populusque Romanus). IIRC the government of Florence still works from the buildings of the Uffizi.

>Italy has a lot of historical continuity. It doesn't. Italy was one of the most ravaged parts of the Western Roman Empire, it has less historical continuity than Spain or France. Only Britain does worse. >If you go to Rome, the manhole covers read SPQR (Senatus Populusque Romanus). That's propaganda. The link between the Roman state and Italy was something pushed by the fascists and it stayed behind in the popular m…

Seems like a bit an exaggeration. The Coptic Language is a dying/dead minority language in modern Egypt while modern Italian is pretty much just Vulgar Latin.

For example here's Egyptian written in hieratic (cursive hieroglyphs written on paper)[0] compared to modern Egyptian Arabic[1]. Now compare pompeii inscriptions [2] to modern Italian graffiti[3].

[0] https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_page_from_the_Eb...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Arabic#Sample_text

[2] https://www.gutenberg.org/files/54149/54149-h/images/illo065...

[3] https://c7.alamy.com/comp/H7ER3R/italian-graffiti-ill-love-y...

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean they did this: https://apnews.com/article/9b6f6f5ba5be2408ff0502c7fb8abd5b Seems silly. Should they overturn Jesus' conviction too? At a certain point the conviction is part of their story.

This causes some interesting questions about continuity of accountability for governments. I wonder how long you can hold a government accountable for the actions of its previous administrations. How many years can you go back? How many iterations of a state can you hold accountable too?

> How many years can you go back?

Probably one election cycle.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#66
post #7
post #2

Can a government today even issue a pardon for crimes alleged by a government of 1302? It’s not even the same institution.

Are you sure? Italy has a lot of historical continuity. If you go to Rome, the manhole covers read SPQR (Senatus Populusque Romanus). IIRC the government of Florence still works from the buildings of the Uffizi.

> Italy has a lot of historical continuity. If you go to Rome, the manhole covers read SPQR (Senatus Populusque Romanus).

That is... not an example of historical continuity. That's like calling the architecture of the US Supreme Court building "historical continuity" from classical Greece.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#67
post #25
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of people seemed to appreciate Alan Turing (and lots of other people) being pardoned for something that should never have been a crime in the first place. Basically, it's a very concrete sign of how we want our society to be now.

i.e. rewriting history.

To use a more modern example, this seems akin to saying that, when someone is falsely convicted of a crime and is imprisoned as a result, appealing their judgment with fresh eyes and consequently acquitting them is "rewriting history." Yes, this example involves a living person, but that doesn't seem specifically relevant to your concern of "rewriting history." The entire act of pardoning someone is reversing a small fraction of the results of a prior action, not pretending that the prior action never happened.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#68
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was flagged, but I think mistakenly by people who think you're joking or taking a dig. The point is there weren't 70,000,000,000 people alive in Italy back then (or, you know, anywhere ever), so it is very likely that Dante shows up in multiple branches of this person's ancestry.

Which also implies everyone is a descendant of Dante.

I believe you're close to correct. According to a paper in 2013 by Graham Coop (an evolutionary biologist from UC Davis) every living person of European descent, if you trace their family trees back 1000 years, likely shares the same list of ancestors. And that list of ancestors is more or less all the people alive in Europe at the time who had descendants surviving to the present -- about 80% of the people alive at the time. Joseph Chang, a statistician from Yale, has also written a great deal on the subject.

Not the most detailed link, but illustrative:

https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/one-big-european-family-video/

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#69
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it matters to his descendants?

But do they really have standing?

I assume you mean standing as a question of law, not morals, in which case it doesn't seem like the ancestor needs to demonstrate that they were harmed by the conviction.

> According to the Italian newspaper, any final judgment can be subject to revision if there is new evidence showing the offender’s innocence. There is no time limit to the request, which can be proposed by an heir of the convict.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean they did this: https://apnews.com/article/9b6f6f5ba5be2408ff0502c7fb8abd5b Seems silly. Should they overturn Jesus' conviction too? At a certain point the conviction is part of their story.

This causes some interesting questions about continuity of accountability for governments. I wonder how long you can hold a government accountable for the actions of its previous administrations. How many years can you go back? How many iterations of a state can you hold accountable too?

However many is politically expedient. China, in particular, has an exceptionally long memory.
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