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Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

theguardian.com

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Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#51

Post by evanb »

WalterBright wrote: post #47
evanb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was flagged, but I think mistakenly by people who think you're joking or taking a dig. The point is there weren't 70,000,000,000 people alive in Italy back then (or, you know, anywhere ever), so it is very likely that Dante shows up in multiple branches of this person's ancestry.

Which also implies everyone is a descendant of Dante.

Not necessarily. If you are descended from historically insular communities (like Ashkenazi Jews, for example) or geographically distant communities (take Native Americans for a clear example) it is unlikely you have Dante as a direct ancestor.

You are right that in the infinite time limit, assuming nonzero mixing, either everybody or nobody will be Dante’s descendant.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#52

Post by delecti »

pen2l wrote: post #50
delecti wrote: post #18

Is this necessary? This article from 2008 seems to indicate that his sentence had been rescinded. https://web.archive.org/web/20111230060902/http://www.telegr... Also, it looks like he was convicted under the Holy Roman Empire, which doesn't really exist anymore. I'm not sure who there is to overturn his conviction.

I think we do a lot of things in our society for their symbolic value to formalize moral values and to demonstrate that we recognize past wrongs. In that regard I don't see anything wrong with this undertaking.

That's not what I asked though. I'm not asking whether or not Dante should have his conviction overturned. Though on that note, I'm not convinced it should be, because it seems his crimes were for actual corruption while in public office, and waging war against the government.

But no, I'm pointing out that it seems like his conviction was already overturned, so what exactly is the complaint?

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#53

Post by x86ARMsRace »

orblivion wrote: post #35
delecti wrote: post #18

Is this necessary? This article from 2008 seems to indicate that his sentence had been rescinded. https://web.archive.org/web/20111230060902/http://www.telegr... Also, it looks like he was convicted under the Holy Roman Empire, which doesn't really exist anymore. I'm not sure who there is to overturn his conviction.

I mean they did this: https://apnews.com/article/9b6f6f5ba5be2408ff0502c7fb8abd5b Seems silly. Should they overturn Jesus' conviction too? At a certain point the conviction is part of their story.

This causes some interesting questions about continuity of accountability for governments. I wonder how long you can hold a government accountable for the actions of its previous administrations. How many years can you go back? How many iterations of a state can you hold accountable too?

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#54

Post by imgabe »

x86ARMsRace wrote: post #53
orblivion wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean they did this: https://apnews.com/article/9b6f6f5ba5be2408ff0502c7fb8abd5b Seems silly. Should they overturn Jesus' conviction too? At a certain point the conviction is part of their story.

This causes some interesting questions about continuity of accountability for governments. I wonder how long you can hold a government accountable for the actions of its previous administrations. How many years can you go back? How many iterations of a state can you hold accountable too?

Empty gestures like this do not hold any one accountable. The people responsible for whatever injustice occurred are long dead and there is nothing you can do to them. This is a waste of time and energy that could be better spent improving life for people who are alive today in some tangible way.

Is this going to feed someone who's hungry? Shelter someone who's homeless? Do anything that will make any actual difference in the life of any living person? No? Then why are we wasting time on it?

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#55

Post by [deleted] »

orblivion wrote: post #35
delecti wrote: post #18

Is this necessary? This article from 2008 seems to indicate that his sentence had been rescinded. https://web.archive.org/web/20111230060902/http://www.telegr... Also, it looks like he was convicted under the Holy Roman Empire, which doesn't really exist anymore. I'm not sure who there is to overturn his conviction.

I mean they did this: https://apnews.com/article/9b6f6f5ba5be2408ff0502c7fb8abd5b Seems silly. Should they overturn Jesus' conviction too? At a certain point the conviction is part of their story.

[deleted]

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#56

Post by WalterBright »

Grustaf wrote: post #32
WalterBright wrote: post #27

1302 to today, that's 36 generations. 2 to the 36th means his descendants today have 1 / 70,000,000,000 of his genetic contribution. I'd say they don't have legal standing.

They have 100% of his name. That is more important than biology to a lot of people.

I could rename myself to Presley, but it gives me no standing to Evlis' estate.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#57

Post by WalterBright »

evanb wrote: post #51
WalterBright wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which also implies everyone is a descendant of Dante.

Not necessarily. If you are descended from historically insular communities (like Ashkenazi Jews, for example) or geographically distant communities (take Native Americans for a clear example) it is unlikely you have Dante as a direct ancestor. You are right that in the infinite time limit, assuming nonzero mixing, either everybody or nobody will be Dante’s descendant.

Obviously. But everyone in Italy is fairly reasonable.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#58

Post by bigmattystyles »

ouid wrote: post #28
WalterBright wrote: post #27

1302 to today, that's 36 generations. 2 to the 36th means his descendants today have 1 / 70,000,000,000 of his genetic contribution. I'd say they don't have legal standing.

You're forgetting to double count for "incest".

I know you're saying that in jest but it's actually called pedigree collapse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_collapse

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#59

Post by [deleted] »

x86ARMsRace wrote: post #53
orblivion wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean they did this: https://apnews.com/article/9b6f6f5ba5be2408ff0502c7fb8abd5b Seems silly. Should they overturn Jesus' conviction too? At a certain point the conviction is part of their story.

This causes some interesting questions about continuity of accountability for governments. I wonder how long you can hold a government accountable for the actions of its previous administrations. How many years can you go back? How many iterations of a state can you hold accountable too?

[deleted]

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#60

Post by Grustaf »

WalterBright wrote: post #56
Grustaf wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have 100% of his name. That is more important than biology to a lot of people.

I could rename myself to Presley, but it gives me no standing to Evlis' estate.

Correct. But actually being a direct descendant would, and that's what we're talking about here.
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