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Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#61

Post by knolax »

mzs wrote: post #24
cpursley wrote: post #10

> However, it uses the Russian spelling of Crimean place names on its maps in Russia, rather than the Ukrainian spelling. The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian). It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. In fact, there's nearly as many Tartar (descendents of Ottomans) speakers in Crimea than Ukrainian. Last…

So? It's not Z Lałręc ul nor Hospital Conmemorativo de Jackson in US just because the majority of people in a place speak a different language or came from somewhere else.

Except that's exactly how it happens in the US, it's "Los Angeles" /lɔːs ˈændʒələs/ and not "Los Ángeles" /los ãŋxeles/ because the majority of people there have been English speakers ever since the US conquest of the Southwest.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#62

Post by excursionist »

jevgeni wrote: post #56
excursionist wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By that logic, all areas of Russia where the non-Russian ethnicity is dominant (of which there are a lot) should all be written out in their respective languages. Why not? Use the most common local language as well as Russian.

Of course! But if you look at the map of Russia it's mostly only English and Russian.

I'm talking about local street signs and documents having the local language + official federal language. The languages used on Google maps just seems to default to your local language + the country official language. That's just the technical aspect of how Google maps works - you can change the language in settings. If you look at Quebec from English-speaking Canada or US you will mostly see English and no French.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#63

Post by FpUser »

nickpeterson wrote: post #49
mzs wrote: post #37

Minister for Foreign Affairs of Ukraine: https://twitter.com/VPrystaiko/status/1199725757762850819 >IPhones are great products. Seriously, though, @Apple, please, please, stick to high-tech and entertainment. Global politics is not your strong side. #CrimeaIsUkraine

Russia has the power to take a portion of territory and they did. The means through which they did it is considered wrong, but it doesn't change the reality of who controls the area. Maps of political borders are maps of influence, not maps of ideals. I'll also note that thoughts and prayers are not terribly useful in these situations. Force responds to force, nothing else. I expect Russia to continue doing these sor…

I expect Russia to continue doing these sorts of things while the world frets.

I think the situation with Crimea is unique as there is a set of multiple historical, racial, political etc. etc. factors not present anywhere else. What else could Russia possibly annex without triggering major war and world mayhem?

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#64

Post by derefr »

golemotron wrote: post #34
derefr wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone believe in "change from the inside" any more? From a "change from the inside" perspective, Apple can make more of a positive difference in pushing forward their agenda for countries like Russia, by staying in the Russian market, complying with a few government demands, and thus offering a sub-optimal form of their products/services—but still a form that has nonzero privacy/democracy/etc.-enhancing effects…

> From a "change from the inside" perspective, Apple can make more of a positive difference in pushing forward their agenda for countries like Russia, by staying in the Russian market, complying with a few government demands How did that work in China? More to the point, companies are not nations or governments. Having agendas for countries is not their place.

> How did that work in China?

China is mostly what I was referring to, honestly. An iOS device that can run five secure-messaging apps instead of ten is still better than an Android device that's been potentially wiretapped during last-mile delivery to the customer.

(This is the same reason that contracts from Western governments propped up RIM for a while, before Apple became a viable replacement for them. A US government official could trust a Blackberry they acquired in China, far more than they could trust a regular Chinese cellphone.)

> More to the point, companies are not nations or governments. Having agendas for countries is not their place.

Companies (at least S-corps) don't have agendas per se; but their employees, as citizens of countries, certainly do. When everybody behind the design of an iPhone lives in the US, you'd better believe that the iPhone is being designed to put forward an implicit "agenda" carried by the cultural beliefs of citizens of the US, whether Apple-as-a-profit-motivated-corporation likes it or not. (You know how there's a recent trend in the US with corporations adopting social-justice messaging in their community guidelines? Think about how that kind of support develops in a corporation, and then replace "social justice" with "foreign policy.")

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#65

Post by varjag »

dangus wrote: post #13

This sort of thing happened long before technology provided mapping programs. I wonder if anyone is familiar with how these things played out in the days of published maps? I’m no historian myself. But I’m sure some map publisher had to begrudgingly admit that “their side lost” at some point. Here’s the thing, once enough time passes, you have to start to consider that Crimea may never return to Ukrainian control. Ju…

The USA used to depict Baltic states as Soviet-occupied independent states on the maps, and didn't budge until USSR fell apart and the countries regained independence.

Growing a spine to stand up for what is right helps. Appeasing a bully is certainly going to cement status quo.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#66

Post by ajross »

cpursley wrote: post #10

> However, it uses the Russian spelling of Crimean place names on its maps in Russia, rather than the Ukrainian spelling. The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian). It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. In fact, there's nearly as many Tartar (descendents of Ottomans) speakers in Crimea than Ukrainian. Last…

> I'm not justifying the recent annexation

It really sounds like you are, though. I mean the principle most of us care about here isn't about matching iOS app text to "the linguistic realities on the ground", it's about not condoning the literal invasion of neighboring countries (by a nuclear power, no less).

> Also, the infrastructure has improved significantly since the Russian takeover

Also sounds very much like a justification for an invasion.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#67

Post by izacus »

yardie wrote: post #7

This probably happens a lot more than you realize. Border and geographic name disputes can get very political and potentially violent. Off the top of my head: * Persian/Arabian Gulf * Palestine/Israel * Western Sahara/Morocco * Kashmir

Kosovo and Macedonia could also be added to that list.

Not to mention myriad of minor border disputes pretty much everywhere across the world.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#68

Post by nickpeterson »

jevgeni wrote: post #60
nickpeterson wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has the power to take a portion of territory and they did. The means through which they did it is considered wrong, but it doesn't change the reality of who controls the area. Maps of political borders are maps of influence, not maps of ideals. I'll also note that thoughts and prayers are not terribly useful in these situations. Force responds to force, nothing else. I expect Russia to continue doing these sor…

That is legally not true.

I didn't say anything about legality.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#69

Post by lolc »

xxpor wrote: post #17

Russia only has 144 million people. Phones haven't been commoditized like they have in China with WeChat. They only have 15% market share. Why doesn't Apple tell Russia to shove it where the sun doesn't shine?

For the people that use it to navigate their lives, a map is most useful when it shows realities on the ground and calls places by the names most useful for the people going there.

If you're talking about legitimacy, of course you could be interested in different maps. But why should Apple care much about that? Why not tell those users to "shove it"? Why should these users get to foist their impractical map on everybody else?

The wall between Israel and Palestinian territories is disputed and internationally condemned. Still the most useful map is the one showing who controls what parts. The demands of restoration use very different maps that would be impractical to navigate day-to-day. Imagine going to the West Bank with a map showing the never-implemented borders of 1947.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#70

Post by keymone »

mzs wrote: post #45
naz wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also exactly what Apple is doing in this situation > The region is now displayed as Russian territory on Apple Maps and Weather, when viewed from inside Russia.

No it adds ", Crimea, Russia" to the end of "Simferopol" in Weather.app but does not on the iPhone in US I just tried here.

Yes, I also noted this. The question is what does it show for people in Ukraine?
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