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Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#31

Post by pjc50 »

dangus wrote: post #13

This sort of thing happened long before technology provided mapping programs. I wonder if anyone is familiar with how these things played out in the days of published maps? I’m no historian myself. But I’m sure some map publisher had to begrudgingly admit that “their side lost” at some point. Here’s the thing, once enough time passes, you have to start to consider that Crimea may never return to Ukrainian control. Ju…

Maps used to be, like telegraph systems, under far more aggressive state control in various places. I seem to remember that Turkey had a law against possessing maps at greater than specified resolution without a license.

Even in present-day India I believe maps are required to show Kashmir with the Indian view, and customs may theoretically confiscate differing printed maps.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#32

Post by zzzcpan »

cpursley wrote: post #10

> However, it uses the Russian spelling of Crimean place names on its maps in Russia, rather than the Ukrainian spelling. The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian). It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. In fact, there's nearly as many Tartar (descendents of Ottomans) speakers in Crimea than Ukrainian. Last…

> The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian), not Ukrainian. It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. In fact, there's nearly as many Tartar (descendents of Ottomans) speakers in Crimea than Ukrainian.

This is misleading and factually incorrect. Everyone who speaks Russian also speaks Ukrainian in Ukraine, except for people who literally moved there recently from Russia and other countries.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#33

Post by TurkishPoptart »

xxpor wrote: post #17

Russia only has 144 million people. Phones haven't been commoditized like they have in China with WeChat. They only have 15% market share. Why doesn't Apple tell Russia to shove it where the sun doesn't shine?

Because Tim Cook is worthless and spineless.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#34

Post by golemotron »

derefr wrote: post #16
ir77 wrote: post #4

i'm a big fan of apple products and definitely bought into apple's stance -- but now i'm starting to think it's nothing more than a convenient branding campaign that only works in the USA. all these aspects that apple markets in the USA seem to be completely negotiable anywhere in the world, and i wonder how long before they can also become negotiable in the USA. in the USA, because of fairly well established democra…

Does anyone believe in "change from the inside" any more? From a "change from the inside" perspective, Apple can make more of a positive difference in pushing forward their agenda for countries like Russia, by staying in the Russian market, complying with a few government demands, and thus offering a sub-optimal form of their products/services—but still a form that has nonzero privacy/democracy/etc.-enhancing effects…

> From a "change from the inside" perspective, Apple can make more of a positive difference in pushing forward their agenda for countries like Russia, by staying in the Russian market, complying with a few government demands

How did that work in China?

More to the point, companies are not nations or governments. Having agendas for countries is not their place.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#35

Post by treden »

anotheryou wrote: post #26

The sentence about google maps is wrong. Google shows whatever you want to see. https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg Google.com.ua users see a state/province border (top image) Google.de users a disputed international boundary (middle image) Google.ru users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings of city names (bottom image). (and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans) I made th…

This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One True Truth down everyone else's throats.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#36

Post by cpursley »

zzzcpan wrote: post #32
cpursley wrote: post #10

> However, it uses the Russian spelling of Crimean place names on its maps in Russia, rather than the Ukrainian spelling. The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian). It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. In fact, there's nearly as many Tartar (descendents of Ottomans) speakers in Crimea than Ukrainian. Last…

> The vast majority of people in Crimea are Russian speakers (as well as being ethnically Russian), not Ukrainian. It's been that way since the Russian Empire conquered the peninsula from the Ottomans in 1783. In fact, there's nearly as many Tartar (descendents of Ottomans) speakers in Crimea than Ukrainian. This is misleading and factually incorrect. Everyone who speaks Russian also speaks Ukrainian in Ukraine, exce…

Yes, this is factually correct - just Google around for Crimea language maps. While this is true of mainland Ukraine (multilingual), Crimea has a different history. It was Russian speakers from the Russian Empire who displaced Tatars (a Turkish language). There was never a significant Ukrainian speaking population in Crimea. Most Crimeans don't speak any Ukrainian.

Just because you don't agree with Russian politics doesn't change the facts about which languages are spoken:

* https://www.quora.com/Do-they-speak-Russian-or-Ukrainian-in-... * https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea * https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/they-spea...

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#38

Post by naz »

treden wrote: post #35
anotheryou wrote: post #26

The sentence about google maps is wrong. Google shows whatever you want to see. https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg Google.com.ua users see a state/province border (top image) Google.de users a disputed international boundary (middle image) Google.ru users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings of city names (bottom image). (and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans) I made th…

This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One True Truth down everyone else's throats.

It's also exactly what Apple is doing in this situation

> The region is now displayed as Russian territory on Apple Maps and Weather, when viewed from inside Russia.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#39

Post by loceng »

treden wrote: post #35
anotheryou wrote: post #26

The sentence about google maps is wrong. Google shows whatever you want to see. https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg Google.com.ua users see a state/province border (top image) Google.de users a disputed international boundary (middle image) Google.ru users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings of city names (bottom image). (and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans) I made th…

This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One True Truth down everyone else's throats.

It makes Google and Apple targets or any centralized information services for capture to then try to control the narrative globally.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#40

Post by kinkrtyavimoodh »

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #18

This happens pretty much everywhere with every online map. Kashmir, Taiwan, Western Sahara, etc. etc. Apple doing it for one country is not particularly news. The only major-league mapping site I know that doesn't do local alterations is OpenStreetMap, and that's because OSM's attitude is "you want the map to show something else? sure, download the raw data and host your own instance".

I think the real reason is that OSM is, practically speaking, not important enough for countries to bother with censoring it.
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