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In Brazil, Amazon Protections Are Slashed and Forests Fall

nytimes.com

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Re: In Brazil, Amazon Protections Are Slashed and Forests Fall

#61

Post by thiagotomei »

zaro wrote: post #25

It's a pity things are going in that direction. But i don't think we are in position to judge the Brazilians over this. I watched a short documentary about this issue recently on Youtube, and the journalists went to some really remote area and spoke with the mayor of town there. The guy was big supporter of Bolsonaro and he said something that is actually very true. He said US and Europe have no right to tell Brazil…

Disclaimer: I am Brazilian and a raving anti-Bolsonaro protester.

If we follow that line of thought, we will always end up at the following conundrum: the planet cannot support the "affluent Western" lifestyle -- think typical Bay Area HN-er -- for all 7 billion humans (as far as I remember, I don't have the sources for that).

Who is going to draw the golden ticket?

I agree that Bolsonaro is an opportunist (like many politicians), and he spews a lot of abominable statements. Unfortunately, his views align with a large section of Brazilian society. A society that was, from the beginning, built on layers upon layers of opportunism, manorialism and slavery. A society that cannot condemn its slave trade past, nor its many dictatorships.

Bottom line -- yes, I think you are in position to judge us.

Re: In Brazil, Amazon Protections Are Slashed and Forests Fall

#62

Post by andrenth »

zelphirkalt wrote: post #12
andrenth wrote: post #5

The other day there was a thread on HN where most people agreed that Amazon should pay France more taxes because even though it’s an internet business, it benefits from things done by the French government. Maybe developed countries should start paying a tax to Brazil and other Amazon forest countries so that they can preserve it. After all, most didn’t do a good job preserving their own forests, so demanding underde…

In principle a nice idea, as we all depend on that forest, however, people like that would abuse this and extort other countries and demand more and more. Bolsonaro is also simply wrong to claim that it is their forest, only because it is on Brazil ground. The whole world depends on it, so it must be a resource shared and kept up by all. Bolsonaro and people like him are holding such things like rain forest hostage.…

I’d like to see other countries sharing their own resources the whole word depends on first.

Re: In Brazil, Amazon Protections Are Slashed and Forests Fall

#63

Post by eeeeeeeeeeeee »

zaro wrote: post #54
eeeeeeeeeeeee wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely understand that viewpoint (China and other Asian countries say similar things). And specifically for Asia, much of that pollution is technically originating in the west, we’ve just outsourced a lot of our pollution to Asian countries. The environmental impact of industrialization needs to be built into the cost of goods. Capitalism can solve many of these problems, but right now pollution practically has…

> Capitalism can solve many of these problems Do you really think so? I would say that capitalism and the economic models that support it are one of the main factors we are in this situation.

I’d like to think so hah, but I’m not 100% either. It seems it would be easier to integrate the true (or close) environmental cost so there is a negative profit impact, instead of twisting people/countries to do the right thing. Because right now we basically incentivize environmental destruction because it’s cheaper in an economic sense.

I agree with you that capitalism is the origin of many of these problems, though. Doesn’t mean it can’t evolve.

Re: In Brazil, Amazon Protections Are Slashed and Forests Fall

#64

Post by pvaldes »

forinti wrote: post #35
zaro wrote: post #25

It's a pity things are going in that direction. But i don't think we are in position to judge the Brazilians over this. I watched a short documentary about this issue recently on Youtube, and the journalists went to some really remote area and spoke with the mayor of town there. The guy was big supporter of Bolsonaro and he said something that is actually very true. He said US and Europe have no right to tell Brazil…

The thing is that the Amazon is not a good place for traditional agriculture. You can chop down the trees and grow crops for a couple of years and then you have to move on. We need a completely different approach to develop the Amazon.

After millions of years improving, and a living layer more than 100 m thick, I think that the area is fully developped to its maximum potential.

Re: In Brazil, Amazon Protections Are Slashed and Forests Fall

#65

Post by refurb »

ulisesrmzroche wrote: post #42
throwawayr1188 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world needs less "well meaning" interventionists like you.

Does it? Why? :crickets:

Same mentality that got us into Iraq.

If we had just respected their sovereignty, we never would have gone there.

Re: In Brazil, Amazon Protections Are Slashed and Forests Fall

#66

Post by fourthark »

woliveirajr wrote: post #37

Everytime there are news about Brazil the threads get a simple political view with shallow arguments. I'm yet to see an article from nytimes and so on where they begin with basic and correct information instead of out-of-the-pocket made up numbers. Because numbers, in reality, are very different from this perspective that it's written. There isn't these increase in forests falling as this article implies.

Was hoping someone would comment on the actual numbers.

Sounds like a bad move to me but it also sounds more like political spite than omg the rainforest is gone.

Re: In Brazil, Amazon Protections Are Slashed and Forests Fall

#67

Post by pas »

thiagotomei wrote: post #61
zaro wrote: post #25

It's a pity things are going in that direction. But i don't think we are in position to judge the Brazilians over this. I watched a short documentary about this issue recently on Youtube, and the journalists went to some really remote area and spoke with the mayor of town there. The guy was big supporter of Bolsonaro and he said something that is actually very true. He said US and Europe have no right to tell Brazil…

Disclaimer: I am Brazilian and a raving anti-Bolsonaro protester. If we follow that line of thought, we will always end up at the following conundrum: the planet cannot support the "affluent Western" lifestyle -- think typical Bay Area HN-er -- for all 7 billion humans (as far as I remember, I don't have the sources for that). Who is going to draw the golden ticket? I agree that Bolsonaro is an opportunist (like many…

The planet most definitely can.

We can borrow against our future cash flows, there is plenty of underutilized capacity that could be used to transform the world to carbon neutrality.

But so far we have not made this choice, because our power structure is too short sighted. Why? Well, naturally there are true ignorants, some selfish folks manipulating the former group, and so we have ugly inefficient compromises.

Re: In Brazil, Amazon Protections Are Slashed and Forests Fall

#68

Post by Keyframe »

throwawayr1188 wrote: post #40
Keyframe wrote: post #4

“The Amazon is ours, not yours,” he told a European journalist. I wonder if there's a scenario somewhere, already worked out, where this is not true anymore. A military takeover of the amazon basin.

The world needs less "well meaning" interventionists like you.

How did you arrive to the conclusion I'm an interventionist?

Re: In Brazil, Amazon Protections Are Slashed and Forests Fall

#69

Post by Keyframe »

nfrbc wrote: post #21
Keyframe wrote: post #4

“The Amazon is ours, not yours,” he told a European journalist. I wonder if there's a scenario somewhere, already worked out, where this is not true anymore. A military takeover of the amazon basin.

It won't happen because Bolsonaro is too cozy with the US government, both have the same anti-leftist "own them libs" political leaning. Who's going to do it? Europe? Asia?

It's an amusing thought experiment. China? They seem to be focusing on the topic of environment.
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