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China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

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Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#61

The most concerning quote: "About 80 percent of Chinese students who get degrees abroad now go back — up from about 33 percent in 2007, according to China’s Ministry of Education. Some 15 percent take jobs in China’s booming tech sector." Attracting top global talent has always been a competitive advance for America, and it's not a good sign for our economy if we can't retain people that we are educating here.

I know plenty of really bright, talented and hardworking Chinese grad students who have a preference to stay in the US but the current visa situation is appalling. RFEs (request for evidence) which were once rare have become standard practice, making the wait to start a new job go up by months, with lots of stressful uncertainty as to whether or not you will be allowed to stay in the US. There's lots of VC money in C…

Came here with very similar stories in mind. I knew multiple graduate students from Asian countries who would've loved to find work in the USA, but they were not given nearly enough time to search, nor were they comfortable with the uncertainty and current admin's hostility to foreigners. Around half of these students quickly found jobs back home after months of failed searching here.

We are doing real harm to our aging economy by not facilitating these bright young minds to stay here.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#62
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This statement seems true without context but false with context. Allow me to provide the context: If you're a Chinese internantional student living in the USA where the #1 guy in the country uses Identity Politics as its arsenal to win and lead the country, you, as an outsider, will feel insecure w.r.t of races. If you're a Chinese international student coming back home to your country of origin, you're used to the…

You China's disregard for human rights is not a big deal because if you're from there you're used to it?

Probably a case of the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. Within the past 100 years we had internment camps for Japanese Americans so if I were an outsider from a country that we have a shaky relationship with, the thought of that or being accused of spying probably wouldn't be too far off in my mind.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#63

The most concerning quote: "About 80 percent of Chinese students who get degrees abroad now go back — up from about 33 percent in 2007, according to China’s Ministry of Education. Some 15 percent take jobs in China’s booming tech sector." Attracting top global talent has always been a competitive advance for America, and it's not a good sign for our economy if we can't retain people that we are educating here.

I see the trend in my coworkers at a big-four ad tech firm as well. At least a couple of them have gone home in the last six months (one of them had her H1B approved less than a year ago as well; and another one already is nearing her STEM OPT extension of 18 months).

I came to the US in mid 2000 to study at a fairly well-known liberal arts college (with full scholarships). I worked at a start-up in SF after graduating in late 2000--earning a decent wage of 72K/yr at that time. The CEO didn't want to go through the trouble of applying for H1B for me, so I--at the end of 18 months' OPT STEM extension; after ~2.5 years of working at that start-up---had to apply for a PhD program and started it in 2010's to keep myself in legal status. I finished my PhD in less than 5 years, and joined my current company with OPT (an extension of F1 student visa for practical training in one's major that s/he graduated from) earning low six-figure salary. When my company applied my H1B visa in 2016, it received request for evidence (the USCIS asked me to prove more that my work--data engineering--is related to computer science, which is what I studied my PhD on. I wrote up 3 pages of explanation and finally got it approved in late 2016. Because I worked pretty hard, I was able to convince my company to apply green card for me. But because of the more stringent regulations applied by Trump administration (and partly because my company acquired standard--not premium--service from the law firm that is working on my case), even after 2 years of the process, I am still at the very first step of the application process where the company is waiting for the department of labor (DoL) to provide prevailing wage determination (pretty much stating how much average worker with my salary is earning in the region where I work). I cannot move jobs when this process is pending because my H1B is tied to my employer and employers that are willing to sponsor employees green card aren't that plenty.

If I want to go back and visit my old and widowed mom in my home country, I would have to go through the interview process at the US embassy of my home country to get a new H1B stamp on my passport (the stamp expires within a year of issued date; some countries, such as India, have better deal with the US and their citizens usually get stamps valid for like 5 years or so if I remember correctly). It carries the risk that I might be denied either by the embassy or the port of entry immigration officer (none of the three that I have met so far treated me nicely--in fact, two of them were quite rude--despite me being courteous and nice to them) when I re-enter the US with H1B visa, not to mention that the cost of renewing the visa costs about $400. So, the ability to go back to home to revisit my mom as frequently as I like (without much hassle) AND the freedom to move to another job are why I really want to get permanent residency.

This is a common path for someone who goes through legal (hardcore) means to become a permanent resident in the US. I only put up with such extremely long journey to become a green card holder because my home country is not China. If it were China, I would be back there by now (I said the same to my departing coworkers). There are easier (in terms of effort/time required) ways like marrying a citizen; seeking asylum (but most of the asylum seekers are doing so for economic reason, meaning they are mostly fake although the success rate of getting approved in democrats administrations are quite high); winning Diversity Visa lottery; and having an immediate blood-relative who submitted application for your green card a decade ago. But none of them are eligible for me or I'm not interested in playing pretend-asylum seeker or paying a US citizen to marry me temporarily.

Throughout the years I've been in the US, I worked hard; paid all my taxes; never even have a minor violation such as traffic citation; donated and volunteered at various charities; donated blood more than a dozen times; etc. I thought I did pretty well as a good, law-abiding, immigrant-wannabe. During the ~16 years, I have experienced quite a few (at least a handful of times that I can recall--including being mocked with 'ching chong ling long' by a panhandler, who was trying to sell me a rap CD in metro area) obvious discriminatory abuse from random strangers (I live in a big metro area).

I am writing this in detail so that I hope HN readers would realize that it is not an easy route for many of the legal immigrants like myself. Sure some of the shady companies abuse H1B, but majority of H1B workers had to go through a pretty rough route to get their H1Bs. If you ask me, I would totally streamline the H1B system so that the companies are required to pay above the average salaries for H1B hires; H1B hires aren't tied to the employers; getting an H1B approved does not require law firms (quite expensive) and a lot of red tape (like in some countries, the wannabe H1B worker can apply for it her/himself); and more importantly, H1B holders (regardless of their country of origin) can enter and leave the US for either business or personal trips unlimited times without much restriction. Then I really do not have a need for green card because my goal is to eventually go back to my home country and retire there in my late 50s. Life in the US, in my opinion, is a lot more stressful than it should be for a developed nation (worrying about healthcare affordability tops the list for me).

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With Chinese cost of living. So, no reason to stay in the Bay Area if you were raised in China.

Look at how much it costs to rent an apartment in Shanghai. If you're hiring developers you're not going to put your offices in the countryside just like the US isn't hiring many programmers in rural Missouri.

Renting an apartment in Shanghai isn't necessarily that expensive, it just costs a lot if you want to buy one.

E.g. here are listings for 1000 yuan per month or less: https://sh.zu.fang.com/house/c20-d21000-n31/ I wouldn't believe any of the other claims made (e.g. the size is probably exaggerated), but behind each of these listings is someone willing to actually offer living space for that price.

The highest price category on that site is 8000 yuan or more, which is $1163.2 according to WolframAlpha.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#66

It doesn't make sense for America to educate its rivals. We should also be wary of Universities turning into backdoor immigration schemes - this has already happened in Australia and lead to a massive reduction in education quality. The focus should be on training Americans to fill American jobs - and any immigration scheme should be arranged with military, economic, and cultural Allies only (UK, Canada, Australia, N…

Is that the full list?

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#67

More than that: the US gov't has declared their own tech giants a threat. Meanwhile, the Chinese gov't is supporting theirs as a potential goldmine on all fronts: national security, foreign policy, economic.

Good point, I've never thought about it that way. We usually see US tech firms supporting the govt (and the resulting protests from their employees). But I wonder how the climate were to change if the govt was proactive in supporting the local tech firms instead.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#68

We're quite far from the scale tipping in that direction, but it makes me curious about whether the US government has the legal authority to say "educating foreigners is no longer in the national interest, therefore it is no longer a valid reason to remain in the United States" and decimate the foreign student population essentially overnight.

Don't they pay full tuition? Even if they don't stay, it's a smaller net gain they study in USA.

Yes, but that also means they drive up the price of tuition and the academic requirements of admission for American students just by existing as consumers of the "student slot at university" product.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#69
post #6

> “Wang said the salaries of his 40-person team for two years cost $700,000.” Good luck with that. If you’re averaging $10k per employee per year over the long term, I guarantee anyone with the ability to be a good engineer is still going to come to the US where they can make orders of magnitude more.

Or maybe US engineer is overpriced.

Considering companies will only hire an engineer from a top college, with top scores, with huge student loans the pay should have to match.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, what parent is saying is that there is a huge difference between a rich Chinese kid studying political science and a workin class Chinese kid studying computer science on a PhD stipend. The former has boomed in the last 10 years while the latter was pretty constant for the last 20+.

Working class Chinese family in many cities now could also afford a two year master program(e.g Stony Brook U only cost me about RMB 300k for the entire Master with a decent CS program). My family is just normal working class with yearly income about 100k RMB. It’s not quite accurate to attribute all masters to “Rich” because ordinary income has been flying in China

True, but then I bet those students are still more into studying STEM than their richer counterparts who are more likely studying liberal arts or biz subjects.
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