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Who gets to own the West?

nytimes.com

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Re: Who gets to own the West?

#61

Post by maxxxxx »

bilbo0s wrote: post #53
maxxxxx wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least we should have a law that people can pass through that land like they have in Scotland.

I'm thinking the politicians from anyplace that would be a problem are strongly disincentivized from making any such law. If a guy owns a big enough tract, then that's potential for a huge roads project to go around that tract. Roads projects mean money and jobs, lots of the former and lots, and lots of the latter. Jobs tends to mean votes. Especially in rural areas. If anyone can just go through the land anyway, all…

I think you are overthinking this way too much. A right to roam would have no impact on road building or other public projects.

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#62

Post by pontifier »

codingdave wrote: post #9

While it isn't the most pressing issue in the article, a quote that jumped out at me is: "For years, he assumed the road was public..." Public land in the West isn't well-marked, and the difference in usage rights between private, state, and federals lands is not well understood by the general public, and sometimes not possible to know without recent data from the managing organizations regarding current permits and…

I got in an argument last year with a pissy middle manager at Boeing about where I was parked.

The spot was unmarked, un-gated, on a road with a stoplight at the intersection, and I was having engine trouble. This little man told me the road was private property, and I had to move my truck immediately.

I ended up getting banned from Battlebots last year over that situation.

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#63

Post by drone »

MaconBacon wrote: post #31
codingdave wrote: post #9

While it isn't the most pressing issue in the article, a quote that jumped out at me is: "For years, he assumed the road was public..." Public land in the West isn't well-marked, and the difference in usage rights between private, state, and federals lands is not well understood by the general public, and sometimes not possible to know without recent data from the managing organizations regarding current permits and…

This seems like a feature that will eventually be baked into onX, which I happily pay for. Right now though it only draws a distinct line between public/private in my state and some public parcels (like city or land trust owned property) appear as private land. Still after a while you get a good sense of whether the parcel is accessible by the name alone. https://www.onxmaps.com/

I love OnX. Between it, and the USFS PDF maps (which can be keyed to GPS using other free apps), I've been able to do a bunch of exploring.

For example, last December, I drew a tag for the Whetstone mountains in AZ. The primary route that everyone used into the western side of the mountain range was a 2.5 hour drive in from the far west, with significantly challenging terrain toe cross. However, between OnX and the USFS maps, I was able to find a route from the south that had an unmarked, but official, USFS service road through private property.

Without that kind of info, I would never have even thought to approach the gate into the property (other hints at arrival help - there was a USFS placard saying to keep gate closed). It saved me dozens of hours of travel during the trip as we were staying in a nearby town.

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#64

Post by davemp »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #57
ccou wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in Sweden with extensive Freedom to roam rights where you can visit all the forest and lakes. But my view has gone in the opposite direction, as someone who loves being in nature I thought the idea was wonderful and I have spent so much time in nature picking mushrooms and nuts. It has been great for me and I respect nature and try to leave it as I found it. Unfortunately I can't say the same for other peop…

A better, longer term, structural solution to this is investing in education and fostering a culture of environmental awareness from childhood. Instead, in the US, we keep defunding the EPA and denouncing scientists sacrificing their lives to appease the needs of rich people to increase the value of their equity.

Do you think people don’t know that dumping and littering in nature is bad? There is an inherent selfishness at play, especially with little threat of punishment or shame.

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#65

Post by HillaryBriss »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #57
ccou wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in Sweden with extensive Freedom to roam rights where you can visit all the forest and lakes. But my view has gone in the opposite direction, as someone who loves being in nature I thought the idea was wonderful and I have spent so much time in nature picking mushrooms and nuts. It has been great for me and I respect nature and try to leave it as I found it. Unfortunately I can't say the same for other peop…

A better, longer term, structural solution to this is investing in education and fostering a culture of environmental awareness from childhood. Instead, in the US, we keep defunding the EPA and denouncing scientists sacrificing their lives to appease the needs of rich people to increase the value of their equity.

A similar problem encountered in California is illegal pot grows in National Forest and even National Park lands. These growers deliberately introduce large quantities of rodent poison into the econsystem, divert streams, and dump trash in what is supposed to be the most protected and pristine federal land. And they do it for profit, or because, as they claim, their families back home would be threatened by a cartel.

How will education eliminate that problem?

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#66

Post by comicjk »

Frost1x wrote: post #21
maxxxxx wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least we should have a law that people can pass through that land like they have in Scotland.

We'd need Senate and House representatives that represent the bulk of citizens in the US and not those catering to the ultra wealthy's whims. For that, people would have to vote out a lot of existing politicians, pick fresh faces, and cycle them out regularly enough to make it difficult for a few private interests to buy them out. For some states there are incentives to keep the status quo because it helps them (Kent…

Cycling the legislators doesn't help at all - it's easy to make a farm team of lackies, already "bought" before they're even elected. They can even be picked according to ideology, so you don't have to pay them a dime.

https://www.brookings.edu/research/re-engineering-politician...

I don't know the solution to this problem, but it's not legislative turnover!

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#67

Post by maxxxxx »

comicjk wrote: post #66
Frost1x wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'd need Senate and House representatives that represent the bulk of citizens in the US and not those catering to the ultra wealthy's whims. For that, people would have to vote out a lot of existing politicians, pick fresh faces, and cycle them out regularly enough to make it difficult for a few private interests to buy them out. For some states there are incentives to keep the status quo because it helps them (Kent…

Cycling the legislators doesn't help at all - it's easy to make a farm team of lackies, already "bought" before they're even elected. They can even be picked according to ideology, so you don't have to pay them a dime. https://www.brookings.edu/research/re-engineering-politician... I don't know the solution to this problem, but it's not legislative turnover!

Agreed. There is this call for term limits but think it would have the opposite effect of what people want. If politics is not a long term career then politicians need to be either independently wealthy or keep a foot in the industry they worked in. That way it's pretty much guaranteed that they will be beholden to that industry and aren't independent.

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#68

Post by closeparen »

Frost1x wrote: post #21
maxxxxx wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least we should have a law that people can pass through that land like they have in Scotland.

We'd need Senate and House representatives that represent the bulk of citizens in the US and not those catering to the ultra wealthy's whims. For that, people would have to vote out a lot of existing politicians, pick fresh faces, and cycle them out regularly enough to make it difficult for a few private interests to buy them out. For some states there are incentives to keep the status quo because it helps them (Kent…

We’re a majority-homeowner country. Property rights are immensely popular.

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#70

Post by MaconBacon »

drone wrote: post #63
MaconBacon wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a feature that will eventually be baked into onX, which I happily pay for. Right now though it only draws a distinct line between public/private in my state and some public parcels (like city or land trust owned property) appear as private land. Still after a while you get a good sense of whether the parcel is accessible by the name alone. https://www.onxmaps.com/

I love OnX. Between it, and the USFS PDF maps (which can be keyed to GPS using other free apps), I've been able to do a bunch of exploring. For example, last December, I drew a tag for the Whetstone mountains in AZ. The primary route that everyone used into the western side of the mountain range was a 2.5 hour drive in from the far west, with significantly challenging terrain toe cross. However, between OnX and the U…

Nice, I use it mostly for finding river frontage in Maine that I can access for fishing. Maine also has a ton of land trusts and conservancies, so I will use it to map out their borders.

Hope you filled that tag!

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