Who gets to own the West? • Hacker News Board

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#31

Post by MaconBacon » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 1:13 PM UTC

codingdave wrote: post #9

While it isn't the most pressing issue in the article, a quote that jumped out at me is: "For years, he assumed the road was public..." Public land in the West isn't well-marked, and the difference in usage rights between private, state, and federals lands is not well understood by the general public, and sometimes not possible to know without recent data from the managing organizations regarding current permits and…

This seems like a feature that will eventually be baked into onX, which I happily pay for. Right now though it only draws a distinct line between public/private in my state and some public parcels (like city or land trust owned property) appear as private land. Still after a while you get a good sense of whether the parcel is accessible by the name alone.

https://www.onxmaps.com/

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#32

Post by jshaqaw » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 1:15 PM UTC

I am amused by the comment that owning a private landholding will protect them should we hit a time of political and climate driven unrest. Yeah - a paper land deed will definitely stave off the masses hordes in the event of a desperate apocalypse. This is the right wing paranoid delusional equivalent of the Silicon Valley billionaires who dream of never dying by uploading their brains into computers circling Mars.

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#33

Post by nsnick » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 1:30 PM UTC

arkades wrote: post #30

I didn’t see this addressed in the article: How much of this is snapping up land that will be a key value once rising water levels displace coastals? This strikes me as a much stronger play than just buying up some land.

We are expecting 3-9 inches of sea level rise over the next century. Boise is at 2730 feet. The mountains where they are buying this land is even higher. What they are hedging is population growth and the continued migration west. Also people leaving California as it becomes too expensive. Buying land in the far north could be a global warming play as that area will be more temperate in future.

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#34

Post by deogeo » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 1:30 PM UTC

codingdave wrote: post #28

nsnick wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That guy was using the road for access to public land. It doesn't necessarily matter who owns the land under a road because the use of the road is supposed to offer access rights. The problem is the guy doesn't have enough money to take on billionaires to assert his access rights.

Totally agree, and that is exactly the kind of thing I'd like to call out - because land ownership is just the first step in knowing what you can and cannot do on that land. There are many other factors. Likewise, sometimes mining claimants believe they can keep people off their claim, which isn't the legal reality - they have the rights to the materials on the land, not exclusive access. Yet another reality of the W…

> the prospector who is holding a gun on you telling you to go away.

That would qualify as assault [1], and should result in the prospector going to jail. But if the US legal system worked as it should, it would be almost completely unrecognizable...

[1] https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2016/01/is-it-a-crime-to-p...

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#35

Post by planteen » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 1:31 PM UTC

codingdave wrote: post #9

While it isn't the most pressing issue in the article, a quote that jumped out at me is: "For years, he assumed the road was public..." Public land in the West isn't well-marked, and the difference in usage rights between private, state, and federals lands is not well understood by the general public, and sometimes not possible to know without recent data from the managing organizations regarding current permits and…

I've thought the same thing and then realized the impossibility of it. The reason being, in most western states, there are tens of thousands of patented mining claims. When a claim gets patented, it is private property, including both mineral and surface rights. Lode claims, the most common, are 10.66 acres. I was trying to find the boundaries of a lode claim, knowing which quarter (160 ac) it was in. I ended up finding an old mineral survey marker for one corner of the claim and nothing else. So making an app that lets hikers skirt around private property is going to be quite imperfect unless things are resurveyed with modern technology, a huge and expensive undertaking.

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#36

Post by oogali » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 1:32 PM UTC

badfrog wrote: post #15

codingdave wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm OK with this - I would rather financially incentivize them to conserve their lands, instead of making them feel they need to monetize it to cover a tax bill.

I'd like it better if they were required to allow public access. The public is paying for this land in lost taxes, we should be able to use it.

I agree, however I think a balance needs to be struck between liability and groundskeeping, as those are currently the costs that all municipalities cover for their public parks.

Something along the lines of retaining some or most of the tax benefits for the private owner, in exchange for the municipality covering grounds maintenance, and a split between both parties for the liability insurance.

I think that’d be the start of the US developing its own “Freedom to Roam” implementation.

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#37

Post by ovi256 » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 1:33 PM UTC

jshaqaw wrote: post #32

I am amused by the comment that owning a private landholding will protect them should we hit a time of political and climate driven unrest. Yeah - a paper land deed will definitely stave off the masses hordes in the event of a desperate apocalypse. This is the right wing paranoid delusional equivalent of the Silicon Valley billionaires who dream of never dying by uploading their brains into computers circling Mars.

You just grant right of abode to a number of young men that know how to handle weapons. They'll be very motivated to defend it - and you! - from the hordes, especially given their families are residing there too.

There, you just reinstated feudalism, with barely any extra steps.

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#38

Post by codingdave » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 1:35 PM UTC

MaconBacon wrote: post #31

codingdave wrote: post #9

While it isn't the most pressing issue in the article, a quote that jumped out at me is: "For years, he assumed the road was public..." Public land in the West isn't well-marked, and the difference in usage rights between private, state, and federals lands is not well understood by the general public, and sometimes not possible to know without recent data from the managing organizations regarding current permits and…

This seems like a feature that will eventually be baked into onX, which I happily pay for. Right now though it only draws a distinct line between public/private in my state and some public parcels (like city or land trust owned property) appear as private land. Still after a while you get a good sense of whether the parcel is accessible by the name alone. https://www.onxmaps.com/

Oh, that is terrific! I didn't know this existed, and may very well happily pay for it myself. Thanks for sharing it!

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#39

Post by snidane » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 1:36 PM UTC

codingdave wrote: post #10

nsnick wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the problem. Land owners don't pay property tax on land that they have placed a conservation easement on. https://www.landtrustalliance.org/topics/taxes/income-tax-in...

I'm OK with this - I would rather financially incentivize them to conserve their lands, instead of making them feel they need to monetize it to cover a tax bill.

Think about what it means 'their land'. The people have agreed that they will protect his exclusive right to use that land. They gave him a set of rights associated with it. There are other people these days for which there was no land left - thus making a price congestion for the existing land.

Shouldn't the current owner pay the tax as means of 1) congestion pricing and 2) service fee for others guaranteeing his rights?

It feels to me like a fair tax as you pay for what you use.

Re: Who gets to own the West?

#40

Post by track_me_now » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 1:51 PM UTC

deogeo wrote: post #34

codingdave wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree, and that is exactly the kind of thing I'd like to call out - because land ownership is just the first step in knowing what you can and cannot do on that land. There are many other factors. Likewise, sometimes mining claimants believe they can keep people off their claim, which isn't the legal reality - they have the rights to the materials on the land, not exclusive access. Yet another reality of the W…

> the prospector who is holding a gun on you telling you to go away. That would qualify as assault [1], and should result in the prospector going to jail. But if the US legal system worked as it should, it would be almost completely unrecognizable... [1] https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2016/01/is-it-a-crime-to-p...

Because when someone is pointing a gun at you, your primary response should be outrage at the legal violation?