I love it!
Introducing a new HTML element – welcome
61–70 of 234 posts
Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>
#62...I do not need more new age HTML tags. If doesn't by default make a toast, it's useless. If I need to style it, I'll just make a or and do my thing.
How brown is this toast, might I ask?
And from whence comes the bread?
The front-end in recent years has become an unintelligible mess between developers obsessing over toast (with no toaster in sight), and Hamburgers... Am I supposed to make a UI or order a meal?
And ? Did the mischevious little paperclip finally come back to irritatate me by making the noise of tapping on glass from an LCD screen?
Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>
#63Very clever move.
All other browser vendors put a lot of effort into making their browser better, and could very well mark the end of Google Chrome's monopoly--with what I guess is a pretty trivial feature to implement, in comparison.
I'm switching to Edge if I can have Clippy back.
Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>
#64The person writing this has to repeat frequently that they're OK with the element; it's quite funny how hard they try not to upset people. But their view of the situation is completely correct; just because this one feature might be useful (heck, when Microsoft dumped XMLHttpRequest on us that was incredible too), doesn't change the fact that we're now living in a web where Google does whatever it wants, adds whateve…
There is a difference though: when Firefox was launched, it was still possible to develop a browser from scratch (like Opera was doing back then), and hence lively competition. Nowadays, with WHATWG HTML's feature creep (the HTML "living standard" spec alone weighing in at 1250 pages and 13.3 MB as a PDF, plus tens of CSS specs all over the place, and JavaScript a moving target), that's infeasible for even a nation-s…
(I worked at Opera a decade ago.)
Opera wasn't a browser from scratch, though: Presto was older than KHTML (and WebKit, etc.).
And really, starting from scratch ten years ago you'd just run into Presto's big failing: site compatibility! Websites rely on all kinds of asinine edge-case behaviour, and if you don't match the majority behaviour, users will leave your browser for your competitors (and site compatibility was, along with crash bugs, always one of the top two reasons for users to switch away from Opera).
In many ways, the vastly larger HTML and CSS specs are a massive boon for minority browsers: when I started at Opera, a large proportion of the Presto team were QA staff who in reality spent almost all their time reducing site compatibility bugs and reverse-engineering other browsers. HTML5 and CSS2.1 made to a large degree that work go away: there was enough movement to converge behaviour (including from the larger browsers) on documented behaviour that reverse-engineering other browsers ceased being something consuming large amounts of resources on all browser teams.
What killed Presto is a variety of things, and the growth of the platform was only a small part of that.
And as mentioned in other sibling comments, all major browsers have rewritten major components at various occasions.
Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>
#65From the chromium forum: "Intent to Implement: Toast UI element" https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/m/#!msg/blink...
>Firefox: No public signals
>Edge: No public signals
>Safari: No public signals
>Web developers: Positive (previously expressed privately; we've encouraged them to make their interest public on the WICG thread)
So basically, nobody at Google talked to anyone about this, asked only google engineers and then pushed those mentioned google engineers to make postive comments in the standards thread? And none of the other browser know shit about it?
What the fuck?
Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
I try switching from Chrome to Firefox at least once a year, but the UI design keeps me firmly entrenched as a Chrome user.
Interestingly I try Chrome once every which and go right back to Firefox for exactly the same reason. I find the Chrome UI intolerable. Tiny tabs, inflexible GUI, less interesting extensions, etc. I also tend to use _many_ tabs (grouped by topic I'm working on) so maybe I'm a bit of an unusual case.
I'm the opposite with tabs, I try to keep them as minimal and just away as much as possible. Thankfully ff is pretty customizable so my setup is fine now, but the default top bar felt just gigantic and distracting coming from Chrome.
Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>
#67Unlike the author, I do not think is a good idea. Elements are supposed to express semantics, but this just suggests behaviour. Not very descriptive behaviour either - since when does actual real-life toast smoothly rise and fall again? Possibly from the ceiling or coming in from the side? Why not just call it ? Or even better, don’t add anything - it’s surely just a that needs styling and animating with existing CSS…
Because it's cute and web standards need more tat.
Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>
#68Unlike the author, I do not think is a good idea. Elements are supposed to express semantics, but this just suggests behaviour. Not very descriptive behaviour either - since when does actual real-life toast smoothly rise and fall again? Possibly from the ceiling or coming in from the side? Why not just call it ? Or even better, don’t add anything - it’s surely just a that needs styling and animating with existing CSS…
Completely agree, toast implies style and behaviour. That’s not what HTML is.
Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I don't see how toast is different from the countless proposals for new declarative UI HTML elements that have been submitted over the years The difference is that if Google introduces a new tag and starts using it, then every other vendor must implement the tag, or the [potentially popular] applications that use it [made by Google] will simply not work. That's not a power that "countless proposals for new declarat…
If Google implements something an Apple doesn’t on the iPhone then what?
iOS has less than 15% market share globally. https://www.idc.com/promo/smartphone-market-share/os
Re: Introducing a new HTML element – welcome <clippy>
#70The person writing this has to repeat frequently that they're OK with the element; it's quite funny how hard they try not to upset people. But their view of the situation is completely correct; just because this one feature might be useful (heck, when Microsoft dumped XMLHttpRequest on us that was incredible too), doesn't change the fact that we're now living in a web where Google does whatever it wants, adds whateve…
"There's not really much of a difference between the web today and the "Best viewed in IE" web, and that's sad. There's a difference in developer goodwill, and of course things aren't as buggy as they were back then so it overall doesn't feel like you're "stuck" with Chrome like it did with IE, but... you are. You're just OK with it." I agree that the monopoly power situation is similar but there really is a big diff…
This is how you get to that situation. It's the "extend" in "embrace, extend, extinguish".