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TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

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Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#61

Post by rayiner »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #41
rectang wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the inevitable consequence of strengthening corporate rights relative to individual rights: corporations take ever larger ownership of government.

I dont even understand how corporations have rights... My understanding is that in a democratic system the individual voter is the unit of currency. Sadly this gets muddied in a sea of "representatives" and lobby groups which claim to represent people...

It's more accurate to say "individuals don't cease to have rights just because they act through a corporation." There are some rights that don't make sense applied to a corporation, and people don't have those rights when acting through a corporate form. (E.g. the Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.) But for most rights, deeming them inapplicable when people are acting as a corporation would be an extremely effective way to eviscerate the underlying right.

The ACLU, Sierra Club, etc., are all corporations. They need to be corporations in order to enable their fund-raising and nationwide scope of activities. Nobody really thinks the ACLU shouldn't have the right to free speech. (Note: The ACLU was on the winning side in Citizens United.) What people are opposed to is the content of the speech that some people speak when acting through the corporate form. (Citizens United was about a movie critical of Hilary Clinton.) But if free speech means anything, it means you can't single out speech based on content.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#62

Post by turc1656 »

I agree with the base assessment the article poses which is that dark patterns are used to get you to pay. But the underlying implication is clear from the tone and wording in the article - that this is a bad or dishonest thing.

First off, Intuit is under no legal obligation (to my knowledge anyway) to provide any service for free. They have promised to do so, but I don't think anything related to this promise is legally binding.

Second, they're in it to make money so clearly all advertising is going to be geared to the paid products.

Lastly, the idea that typing a reasonable search into Google and having the page with the actual result be the 5th link which you then click into and have to read the requirement of getting something for free is somehow shady seems a bit dramatic. Not to mention that when I type that same search string into Google now it's the first link after the featured snippet (which is also a link to the IRS, but a different page). I don't think that's in any way unreasonable or undesirable. That's about as close to idiot-proof as you can get in my opinion. And we're talking about something that's free here so there's pretty much no incentive to assist it. And in this case, as per the article, there's active incentive to hide it and yet it's still really easy to find.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#63

Post by pishpash »

iamwpj wrote: post #42

Hey, just an FYI. You never have to pay to file taxes. Like the forms are free on IRS.gov. You can fill in the information and mail it in with any money you owe too. There are help guides that step your through the process of filling out the forms as well, like worksheets to calculate deductibles if you need it. It's very important that you go to IRS.gov and look at your options before you ever pay someone to do your…

Have you looked at the OMB filing time estimates on each form? That's a significant investment of time. I've done it many times and I think everyone should do it at least once so they can verify the software's work in the future, because despite what you think software does make egregious mistakes (data flow related, not math) and miss opportunities due to opaque questioning.

But, doing it that way every year is not a practical option for anyone who doesn't already qualify for the free filing options anyway.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#64

Post by anonuser123456 »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #41
rectang wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the inevitable consequence of strengthening corporate rights relative to individual rights: corporations take ever larger ownership of government.

I dont even understand how corporations have rights... My understanding is that in a democratic system the individual voter is the unit of currency. Sadly this gets muddied in a sea of "representatives" and lobby groups which claim to represent people...

Corporations are just the proxies of their owners. The corporation has rights on behalf of those owners.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#65

Post by turc1656 »

1024core wrote: post #8

The real dark pattern is their ability to bribe the Congress into preventing IRS from implementing free filing.

Nah, you're missing the forest when looking at the trees. Go bigger. Why the hell is the tax code so damn complicated that it requires certified experts and special software to perform personal tax filings? I can see the case for a complex code for business taxes since there are many different industries that have different rules. But personal returns should never, ever have such complicated rules. And that doesn't mean I agree with business taxes being complicated, merely that the argument is much more reasonable.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#67

Post by CreRecombinase »

turc1656 wrote: post #62

I agree with the base assessment the article poses which is that dark patterns are used to get you to pay. But the underlying implication is clear from the tone and wording in the article - that this is a bad or dishonest thing. First off, Intuit is under no legal obligation (to my knowledge anyway) to provide any service for free. They have promised to do so, but I don't think anything related to this promise is leg…

I could see the logic of the argument "these aren't dark patterns", or (to a lesser extent) "these are dark patterns(and therefore dishonest), but dishonesty isn't bad". I'm having trouble working through your argument "these are dark patterns, but they aren't dishonest". Might a fair restatement of your argument be something like: "Reasonably informed people should know that Intuit is a profit-seeking entity, and should therefore expect Intuit to pursue all legal means to increase profit"?

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#68

Post by rectang »

testvox wrote: post #49
maerF0x0 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont even understand how corporations have rights... My understanding is that in a democratic system the individual voter is the unit of currency. Sadly this gets muddied in a sea of "representatives" and lobby groups which claim to represent people...

Because corporations are just groups of people operating as one legal entity as is required for many ventures which would be too expensive or risky for one person to take on by themselves. Do you think corporations like the New York Times should not have freedom of speech? Do you think the government should be able to arbitrary power against corporations like Planned Parenthood? Should governments have arbitrary powe…

The irony of strengthening corporate power over government is that corporations will naturally rush in to occupy the most malignant aspects of government.

In the case of Intuit, the government opts out of providing a service so that a corporation can seek rent.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#69

Post by wool_gather »

turc1656 wrote: post #65
1024core wrote: post #8

The real dark pattern is their ability to bribe the Congress into preventing IRS from implementing free filing.

Nah, you're missing the forest when looking at the trees. Go bigger. Why the hell is the tax code so damn complicated that it requires certified experts and special software to perform personal tax filings? I can see the case for a complex code for business taxes since there are many different industries that have different rules. But personal returns should never, ever have such complicated rules. And that doesn't m…

What complicated rules? The basic 1040 is perfectly straightforward, even if you have a few sources of income or special deductions/credits.

Re: TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes

#70

Post by grogenaut »

turc1656 wrote: post #65
1024core wrote: post #8

The real dark pattern is their ability to bribe the Congress into preventing IRS from implementing free filing.

Nah, you're missing the forest when looking at the trees. Go bigger. Why the hell is the tax code so damn complicated that it requires certified experts and special software to perform personal tax filings? I can see the case for a complex code for business taxes since there are many different industries that have different rules. But personal returns should never, ever have such complicated rules. And that doesn't m…

But how can I incentivise people to do things like buy hybrid or electric cars, solar, etc without tax breaks, and how do I do tax breaks without complicated calculations based on laws pseudocode) and a bunch of other numbers?
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