Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body • Hacker News Board

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#61

Post by tertius » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 11:50 AM UTC

Santosh83 wrote: post #32

Experiments like these were done even decades back. Every time, there is some temporary indignation/outrage from some limited quarters and then the news dies down while such experiments continue behind closed doors. Only the much derided "animals rights" group keep up sustained focus but they're effectively isolated and ignored. Perhaps society will do well to keep in mind that what we do to animals we will eventuall…

A culture where no mistakes are tolerated results in a culture where no growth is allowed.

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#62

Post by williamdclt » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 11:51 AM UTC

perfmode wrote: post #56

torgian wrote: post #33

Spoiler warning: I didn’t read the article (can’t access now due to vpn not working) So from reading others comments and such: yeah, I understand the idea that the pigs could be comatose and not experiencing anything. From the science behind brains as we know it, that seems to be the case. Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with this because, in the end, it will benefit humans. And we are more important than pigs…

I’m curious. What is your basis for determining that it is okay to do this to pigs? Could we also do this to dogs? Dolphins? Elephants? Monkeys?

It's very personal, but for me "it could reasonnably be useful for humans" (ie it's not cruelty for fun) and "they are not humans" makes it okay to do this to pigs. So yeah, dogs/dolphin/elephants/monkeys would be okay too.

But I do appreciate that other people might have different sensibility or empathy with animals

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#63

Post by tertius » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 11:52 AM UTC

thefounder wrote: post #60

perfmode wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious. What is your basis for determining that it is okay to do this to pigs? Could we also do this to dogs? Dolphins? Elephants? Monkeys?

Well, we eat the pigs so doing some science experiments on them should be acceptable considering we have so many food alternatives and still eat pigs. I believe people who eat dogs don't see an issue with dog experiments.

I'll take cows as an example as I don't eat pig...

If the meat I buy is from someone who mutilated the cow and optimized for maximum pain in the death of the cow then I would not buy that meat.

So there is a spectrum here. Just because we kill animals for food does not mean that it's ethical along the rest of the spectrum of harm.

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#64

Post by tertius » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 11:56 AM UTC

jonathankoren wrote: post #14

taneq wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has always dumbfounded me about animal experimentation - it's perfectly OK to decapitate a pig to make bacon but it's somehow horribly inhuman to do so to potentially save millions of lives?

It's because this could be some sort of bizarre unending Harlan Ellisonesque torture. Torturing animals is has been considered immoral for many, many, many years.

* thousands.

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#65

Post by matz1 » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 11:58 AM UTC

perfmode wrote: post #56

torgian wrote: post #33

Spoiler warning: I didn’t read the article (can’t access now due to vpn not working) So from reading others comments and such: yeah, I understand the idea that the pigs could be comatose and not experiencing anything. From the science behind brains as we know it, that seems to be the case. Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with this because, in the end, it will benefit humans. And we are more important than pigs…

I’m curious. What is your basis for determining that it is okay to do this to pigs? Could we also do this to dogs? Dolphins? Elephants? Monkeys?

For me, I drew the line at human and non human. I'm okay to do anything to non human.

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#66

Post by chr1 » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 11:59 AM UTC

Santosh83 wrote: post #32

Experiments like these were done even decades back. Every time, there is some temporary indignation/outrage from some limited quarters and then the news dies down while such experiments continue behind closed doors. Only the much derided "animals rights" group keep up sustained focus but they're effectively isolated and ignored. Perhaps society will do well to keep in mind that what we do to animals we will eventuall…

>Perhaps society will do well to keep in mind that what we do to animals we will eventually do to each other too

Is it a bad thing in this case? A technique like this could help to extend life in some cases.

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#67

Post by exoesquitur » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 12:42 PM UTC

badminton1 wrote: post #49

torgian wrote: post #33

Spoiler warning: I didn’t read the article (can’t access now due to vpn not working) So from reading others comments and such: yeah, I understand the idea that the pigs could be comatose and not experiencing anything. From the science behind brains as we know it, that seems to be the case. Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with this because, in the end, it will benefit humans. And we are more important than pigs…

[flagged]

Obviously, this is very sticky moral ground, and I don't claim to absolutely have the answers....

But I think there is merit to the idea of personage. Types of dolphins have been declared non-human persons, as have some primates, by several governments. There is some significant evidence that elephants may also belong in this grouping.

I think that at some point, an individuals awareness and potential for moral autonomy becomes significant enough that it deserves recognition as such by others with similar capabilities.

I don't pretend to know exactly how to judge this, but I think it is possible as we gain knowledge about the nature of intelligence to make judgements on this criteria.

I think that all animals (and plants) should be treated humanely within the practical possibility of doing so (I subscribe to the "if you can't fix it, try not to break it" philosophy) but I think it is farsical to attempt to equivilize the moral significance of dogs and pigs with that of humans and primates.

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#68

Post by wvlia5 » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 1:00 PM UTC

matz1 wrote: post #65

perfmode wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious. What is your basis for determining that it is okay to do this to pigs? Could we also do this to dogs? Dolphins? Elephants? Monkeys?

For me, I drew the line at human and non human. I'm okay to do anything to non human.

Isn't that kind of arbitrary? What if I said "for me, I drew the line at white people and non white people. I'm okay to do anything to non white"

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#69

Post by de_watcher » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 1:59 PM UTC

perfmode wrote: post #56

torgian wrote: post #33

Spoiler warning: I didn’t read the article (can’t access now due to vpn not working) So from reading others comments and such: yeah, I understand the idea that the pigs could be comatose and not experiencing anything. From the science behind brains as we know it, that seems to be the case. Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with this because, in the end, it will benefit humans. And we are more important than pigs…

I’m curious. What is your basis for determining that it is okay to do this to pigs? Could we also do this to dogs? Dolphins? Elephants? Monkeys?

What will we do when our technology gets to the level of the living things?

Is it forbidden to reverse-engineer to get there faster?

Re: Researchers are keeping pig brains alive outside the body

#70

Post by _8j50 » Thu, Dec 27, 2018, 3:10 PM UTC

khazhoux wrote: post #28

_8j50 wrote: post #17

This is too much. Uncrossable lines must be drawn immediately. Humanity cannot afford to "wing it" when it comes to ethics and morality at this scale. There needs to be clear lines where crossing means the highest criminal consequence to the researcher. And people funding it. And it needs to be a global effort. Everything needs a balance.

Why is this an uncrossable line, though? Clearly this research is meant to be a first/early step towards preserving brains in the event of traumatic bodily injury. Is that not a worthwhile goal? Is it outweighed by some possible nefarious abuse of this technique? There are obviously major issues to work out still, but I don't see how else this research can advance but with animal experiments.

Because animal torture is considered unethical. If you don't agree that's fine. Let us at least agree the line is needed. We shouldn't be discussing this retroactively.