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Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

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Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#61

BMW reported profits of €8.7bn for the year 2017. [1] Tesla stockholders must be very, very optimistic about its future performance when they value Tesla more than an already established, immensely profitable player. [1] https://phys.org/news/2018-03-bmw-net-profit-bn-euros.html

This is a key point when considering Tesla stock. In order to justify the current price, Tesla really has to become the next Toyota.

Volkswagen is an $85B auto maker and the second most valuable. Tesla is already a $60B auto maker. If Tesla becomes the next Volkswagen in 10 years, they will have gained 42% returns over 10 years or about 3.6% annual returns. Given the high risk that Tesla won't become the next Volkswagen, it seems over-priced.

Even Toyota, at $192B, seems like it would be lackluster returns if Tesla reaches their heights in a decade. That would be a 12.4% annualized return. Now, that's a very good return, but is is likely that Tesla will become the next Toyota? Why not the Next Volkswagen at $85B or Ford at $28B or GM at $51B or Mazda at $7B? Those are all successful auto makers with good profits.

Worse, are cars really the future? More and more people are migrating to cities and looking toward public transit. Even if cars become green, they're still congestion in a world whose urban population is increasing a lot where congestion and parking are becoming larger problems.

Even if cars are the future, will people own them? If self-driving cars become a reality, demand for vehicles could fall by 90%. Most cars are idle most of the time. If I can just get a self-driving taxi everywhere I need to go, it would be a fraction of the price of owning a vehicle since I would be sharing vehicles with many people. That would lower the demand for vehicles a lot. Even if Tesla became 100% of the auto industry, if that industry is a tiny fraction of the size today, it would really hurt Tesla's finances.

Really, I think there are two ways Tesla could hold up to its expectations. 1) Being more than a car company. Tesla might become big in other industries like solar power in addition to being a car company. They'd probably need more than just solar as an add-on, but there are markets out there. 2) Tesla's vertical integration works really well and beats out competitors. One thing to note about this: the vertical integration also exposes them to a lot of risk. When you have several outside companies creating the same component for you, if one doesn't deliver, you don't have to push back projects - you just buy from a different supplier. While you pay a mark-up, you also get different companies and teams working on the same problem to drive down price and drive up quality. It's certainly possible that Tesla will do excellently with their in-house components and keep that going for decades and it could provide them a strong price advantage against competitors.

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#62
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are able, but they don't do it. The only full electric car BMW currently produces is the wacky i3, which doesn't appeal to the average BMW buyer. For some reason all car manufacturers (except tsla) build really lame, goofy, small electric cars, why can't we just have a traditional luxury saloon? The current 5 and 3-series are not offered in an full electric version. Which means that maybe, if we are lucky, there…

>For some reason all car manufacturers (except tsla) build really lame, goofy, small electric cars, why can't we just have a traditional luxury saloon? Because maybe high-quality saloons with expensive batteries are way to expensive for most consumers?

And yet, Tesla has the third highest average selling price of all manufacturers. Clearly there is an expectations mismatch.

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#63
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stockholders just believe the no one else will ever be able to make an electric car.

The fact that it's electric is not even close to the only advantage that Tesla's cars have over ICE cars. Tesla turned the car into a software problem, and I would argue they have demonstrated they are WAY WAY ahead of the major OEM's at software and in the infrastructure supporting it. Not to mention extremely sleek and well loved design, autopilot, etc. To just make a Camry electric won't be enough ( though it defi…

>autopilot

Other than marketing, are they really ahead of the competition?

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#64
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are able, but they don't do it. The only full electric car BMW currently produces is the wacky i3, which doesn't appeal to the average BMW buyer. For some reason all car manufacturers (except tsla) build really lame, goofy, small electric cars, why can't we just have a traditional luxury saloon? The current 5 and 3-series are not offered in an full electric version. Which means that maybe, if we are lucky, there…

>For some reason all car manufacturers (except tsla) build really lame, goofy, small electric cars, why can't we just have a traditional luxury saloon? Because maybe high-quality saloons with expensive batteries are way to expensive for most consumers?

Depends on the market. I live in the Netherlands (next to Germany) and even though NL is one of the most expensive countries to own a car, luxury german cars are very common here. So are Tesla's by the way.

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#65
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BMW's net profits just tanked 24% in Q3. Meanwhile, TSLA is producing margins that the legacy manufacturers can only dream of. They are making 20% on a Model 3 while the others are squeezing out a few hundred Euros in the non-luxury segment. Also, TSLA's battery tech is years ahead while especially the German manufacturers have been putting their eggs mostly in the Diesel basket. But those have become increasingly ha…

I don’t think this is the same as the phone market. Tesla’s success does not stop BMW from thriving in the EV market in the future, another way to put it is that cars are not a platform.

Until autonomous rideshare services take over. Then regional monopolies will arise due to the infrastructure needed to support those fleets.

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#66
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are able, but they don't do it. The only full electric car BMW currently produces is the wacky i3, which doesn't appeal to the average BMW buyer. For some reason all car manufacturers (except tsla) build really lame, goofy, small electric cars, why can't we just have a traditional luxury saloon? The current 5 and 3-series are not offered in an full electric version. Which means that maybe, if we are lucky, there…

The i3 is one of the best interpretations of the electric car, although it I guess it has been surpassed by now by the likes of the Renault Zoe and Nissan Leaf. The i3 is what you get when you build an electric car that is optimized towards what an electric drive is good at _right now_. Given the range problem of the current battery technology, a short range city car with minimized energy consumption is where the ele…

Yes, the i3 is a remarkable car on many counts including how it is manufactured. But it really is a niche vehicle that is only ever going to appeal to a small segment of the market.

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#67
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that it's electric is not even close to the only advantage that Tesla's cars have over ICE cars. Tesla turned the car into a software problem, and I would argue they have demonstrated they are WAY WAY ahead of the major OEM's at software and in the infrastructure supporting it. Not to mention extremely sleek and well loved design, autopilot, etc. To just make a Camry electric won't be enough ( though it defi…

>autopilot Other than marketing, are they really ahead of the competition?

Which competition are we talking about?

GM Supercruise is the only other thing on the market that is comparable, and with Nav on Autopilot I'd argue Tesla is a fair bit ahead.

Maybe they are not ahead of Waymo, but can you buy a Waymo? If not then when will you be able to?

There is Comma.ai which I am impressed with and think will be the general autonomous solution to many (most?) non-Tesla cars going forward, but their product at the moment is for hobbyists and not consumers.

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#68

BMW reported profits of €8.7bn for the year 2017. [1] Tesla stockholders must be very, very optimistic about its future performance when they value Tesla more than an already established, immensely profitable player. [1] https://phys.org/news/2018-03-bmw-net-profit-bn-euros.html

BMW's net profits just tanked 24% in Q3. Meanwhile, TSLA is producing margins that the legacy manufacturers can only dream of. They are making 20% on a Model 3 while the others are squeezing out a few hundred Euros in the non-luxury segment. Also, TSLA's battery tech is years ahead while especially the German manufacturers have been putting their eggs mostly in the Diesel basket. But those have become increasingly ha…

> BMW's net profits just tanked 24% in Q3.

What caused this?

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#69

Doesn't matter all car companies are toast, car sales are falling, iPhones have eclipsed cars as a status symbol among young people. Many of my friends no longer have cars. The ones successfully migrating to autopilot Uber style service have a bright future. Mercedes and BMW have the most successful in Germany (they merged their operations), so the real next decade competitor of BMW is Uber/Lyft not Tesla. I guess it…

> iPhones have eclipsed cars as a status symbol among young people

uhh...

People use their iPhone to go on Instagram and like photos of people with $300k cars. I pinky promise.

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#70

Doesn't matter all car companies are toast, car sales are falling, iPhones have eclipsed cars as a status symbol among young people. Many of my friends no longer have cars. The ones successfully migrating to autopilot Uber style service have a bright future. Mercedes and BMW have the most successful in Germany (they merged their operations), so the real next decade competitor of BMW is Uber/Lyft not Tesla. I guess it…

> iPhones have eclipsed cars as a status symbol among young people uhh... People use their iPhone to go on Instagram and like photos of people with $300k cars. I pinky promise.

Let me google that for you:

https://www.google.com/search?q=cars+no+longer+status+symbol

https://www.google.com/search?q=iphones%20have%20cars%20stat...

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