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Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

electrek.co

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Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#41

Post by athenot »

LeonM wrote: post #26
DanCarvajal wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stockholders just believe the no one else will ever be able to make an electric car.

They are able, but they don't do it. The only full electric car BMW currently produces is the wacky i3, which doesn't appeal to the average BMW buyer. For some reason all car manufacturers (except tsla) build really lame, goofy, small electric cars, why can't we just have a traditional luxury saloon? The current 5 and 3-series are not offered in an full electric version. Which means that maybe, if we are lucky, there…

I drove 2 Nissan LEAFs for 5 years. They are solid cars, and this year's iteration moved out of the "early adopter" segment and is being marketed as a mainstream car.

Their roadmap in 2022 calls for 4 EVs plus 2 more under the Infiniti brand. Unlike GM, Nissan has 8 years of experience with EVs so I think their roadmap is believable.

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#42

Post by leesec »

DanCarvajal wrote: post #15
ckastner wrote: post #10

BMW reported profits of €8.7bn for the year 2017. [1] Tesla stockholders must be very, very optimistic about its future performance when they value Tesla more than an already established, immensely profitable player. [1] https://phys.org/news/2018-03-bmw-net-profit-bn-euros.html

Stockholders just believe the no one else will ever be able to make an electric car.

The fact that it's electric is not even close to the only advantage that Tesla's cars have over ICE cars.

Tesla turned the car into a software problem, and I would argue they have demonstrated they are WAY WAY ahead of the major OEM's at software and in the infrastructure supporting it.

Not to mention extremely sleek and well loved design, autopilot, etc. To just make a Camry electric won't be enough ( though it definitely will take some of the market share ).

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#43

Post by cache_miss »

LeonM wrote: post #33
cache_miss wrote: post #16

As a former BMW fanboy, here's my take: 1) Over the past decade, BMW has snuffed the enthusiast/semi-enthusiast crowd to cater to mainstream luxury buyers. 2) Anecdotally, I've noticed that the Tesla buyers of today were the BMW/Audi buyers of yesterday. Who's still interested in new BMWs?

> Who's still interested in new BMWs? This. Exactly this. I've overheard potential buyers (not just at BMW, but all car dealerships) asking questions like: - Can I get this car in an all-electric version? > No - Can I get this car with AWD (dual motor) > No - Can I get this car with autopilot > No - Will this car receive updates over the air? > No - Does the base model come with 300+ HP? > No - Can I control this car…

Not to mention resale. A 2013 Model S still sells for 40k. A 2013 BMW 5-series sells for about 15k. All BMW has left is its badge.

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#44

Post by Retric »

falcolas wrote: post #29
Retric wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only are they losing money, it also starts at $36,620 which is more than the Tesla 3 base model and it’s tiny. Bolt: 164″ L x 70″ W Model 3: 185″ L x 73″ W Which is not nessisarily a bad thing for a city car.

The Tesla 3 base model is not in production right now. Only the higher priced models are. I'm sure they'll eventually get to it, but you're comparing a model that is available to buy today with one which is not.

Sure, in practice you can even get a 2019 Bolt for 9k under MSRP becase nobody wants them. https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/747922437/overview...

Tesla may or may not start base model production in Q1 2019, but availability is not really helping the Bolt sell.

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#45

Post by sorrymate »

rchaud wrote: post #18
ckastner wrote: post #10

BMW reported profits of €8.7bn for the year 2017. [1] Tesla stockholders must be very, very optimistic about its future performance when they value Tesla more than an already established, immensely profitable player. [1] https://phys.org/news/2018-03-bmw-net-profit-bn-euros.html

> Tesla stockholders must be very, very optimistic about its future performance or about their ability to flip the stock to the next buyer while the going is still good.

Not true. We are not all short sellers.

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#46

Post by thepangolino »

LeonM wrote: post #26
DanCarvajal wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stockholders just believe the no one else will ever be able to make an electric car.

They are able, but they don't do it. The only full electric car BMW currently produces is the wacky i3, which doesn't appeal to the average BMW buyer. For some reason all car manufacturers (except tsla) build really lame, goofy, small electric cars, why can't we just have a traditional luxury saloon? The current 5 and 3-series are not offered in an full electric version. Which means that maybe, if we are lucky, there…

This is something that also always boggled my mind. One of the most expensive parts on an electric car are the batteries. No matter how cheap you try to make your car, you'll be set back about 20k just with the batteries.

At this point, why even bother trying to go for the lower end.

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#47

Post by thesimon »

LeonM wrote: post #26
DanCarvajal wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stockholders just believe the no one else will ever be able to make an electric car.

They are able, but they don't do it. The only full electric car BMW currently produces is the wacky i3, which doesn't appeal to the average BMW buyer. For some reason all car manufacturers (except tsla) build really lame, goofy, small electric cars, why can't we just have a traditional luxury saloon? The current 5 and 3-series are not offered in an full electric version. Which means that maybe, if we are lucky, there…

>For some reason all car manufacturers (except tsla) build really lame, goofy, small electric cars, why can't we just have a traditional luxury saloon?

Because maybe high-quality saloons with expensive batteries are way to expensive for most consumers?

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#48

Post by 013a »

DanCarvajal wrote: post #15
ckastner wrote: post #10

BMW reported profits of €8.7bn for the year 2017. [1] Tesla stockholders must be very, very optimistic about its future performance when they value Tesla more than an already established, immensely profitable player. [1] https://phys.org/news/2018-03-bmw-net-profit-bn-euros.html

Stockholders just believe the no one else will ever be able to make an electric car.

Beyond the hype, I think it's feasible to believe that Tesla has a massive multi-year advantage that other car companies will be playing catchup to for a very long time.

Having the global manufacturing infrastructure of someone like Ford or VAG certainly seems like an advantage, but retrofitting that infrastructure to manufacture electric vehicles isn't exactly trivial or cheap. Then consider you also need to "retrofit" all of your people to figure out how to make electric vehicles (or hire new people). The platforms that worked for ICEs don't work for EVs. The electronics don't work. It requires a huge number of new parts. And the parts that stay the same might not be well-suited for EVs; ICE buyers, especially BMW, don't really care about fuel economy, but every EV buyer does care about range. That's a huge shift that affects every part; seats have to be lighter, made of different materials, you have to use more aluminum and carbon fiber in more expensive models, aerodynamics change, etc.

Then consider Tesla's massive lead in battery production which serves to drive down price and increase their technology lead.

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#49

Post by mtgx »

cache_miss wrote: post #16

As a former BMW fanboy, here's my take: 1) Over the past decade, BMW has snuffed the enthusiast/semi-enthusiast crowd to cater to mainstream luxury buyers. 2) Anecdotally, I've noticed that the Tesla buyers of today were the BMW/Audi buyers of yesterday. Who's still interested in new BMWs?

> 1) Over the past decade, BMW has snuffed the enthusiast/semi-enthusiast crowd to cater to mainstream luxury buyers

Interesting you say that, as I feel Apple is committing the exact same mistake lately.

Re: Tesla (TSLA) surpasses BMW's valuation as one soars and the other slips

#50

Post by gehsty »

this_user wrote: post #36
ckastner wrote: post #10

BMW reported profits of €8.7bn for the year 2017. [1] Tesla stockholders must be very, very optimistic about its future performance when they value Tesla more than an already established, immensely profitable player. [1] https://phys.org/news/2018-03-bmw-net-profit-bn-euros.html

BMW's net profits just tanked 24% in Q3. Meanwhile, TSLA is producing margins that the legacy manufacturers can only dream of. They are making 20% on a Model 3 while the others are squeezing out a few hundred Euros in the non-luxury segment. Also, TSLA's battery tech is years ahead while especially the German manufacturers have been putting their eggs mostly in the Diesel basket. But those have become increasingly ha…

I don’t think this is the same as the phone market. Tesla’s success does not stop BMW from thriving in the EV market in the future, another way to put it is that cars are not a platform.
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