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Ajit Pai calls California’s net neutrality rules “illegal”

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61–70 of 74 posts

Re: Ajit Pai calls California’s net neutrality rules “illegal”

#61

> It follows that only the federal government can set regulatory policy in this area. For if individual states like California regulate the Internet, this will directly impact citizens in other states. -- Pai Interesting argument. Could his reasoning be used to block attempts by states (NC, I'm looking at you!) to interfere with municipal broadband?

I mean it's an argument against a federal system in general, when you think about it. Any regulation California passes is going to affect what is sold all over the country, because businesses can't afford to ignore it and making a special California version is more complicated than just complying in the base product.

Re: Ajit Pai calls California’s net neutrality rules “illegal”

#62
post #39
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in no way defending Pai, but I generally disagree with the idea that a regulator working in the industry before or after they are done serving publicly is definitive proof of corruption (which you seem to be implying). That isn't to say that the revolving door nature of these regulators and private industry can't or even doesn't lead to corruption, but what are the alternatives? The regulators should obviously b…

A high-level representative of any industry is going to have personal connections in that industry and personal reasons for not wanting to regulate the industry as it should be regulated in the best interest of the people. I don't see any benefit to someone in charge of regulating the communications industry having ever worked in communications. An intelligent person - and not necessarily an academic - a lawyer would…

I think you are downplaying the complexities of these regulatory jobs if you think they can be adequately done by any intelligent person regardless of their knowledge of the industry. That admittedly may be less important for the FCC compared to other agencies, but would you be comfortable if the head of the FDA was a lawyer rather than a doctor or scientist?

Re: Ajit Pai calls California’s net neutrality rules “illegal”

#63
post #35

Ah, the hypocrisy of the "States Rights" crowd: They're all for it, until they don't like what a state wants to do.

The "State's Rights" crowd is also generally synonymous with the "Rule of Law" crowd. I don't see hypocrisy in supporting the application of law as it is written while opposing the existence of said law itself. Laws are not immutable and there's a process for changing/repealing them (legislation) as well as a separate process for invalidating them based on constitutional merit (judicial). Until both those processes have been tried, I don't see this as an innately hypocritical viewpoint.

Re: Ajit Pai calls California’s net neutrality rules “illegal”

#64
post #35

Ah, the hypocrisy of the "States Rights" crowd: They're all for it, until they don't like what a state wants to do.

States' rights were first employed as an argument by New Englanders opposing the War of 1812. Their more famous Southern exponents were not troubled by the Fugitive Slave Law. I'd argue that there is nearly nobody who has a principled commitment to states' rights, rather than using it as an instrument to their true ends.

Re: Ajit Pai calls California’s net neutrality rules “illegal”

#65
post #43
post #13

I would be interested to learn how Indian and Indian-American HN members regard him. Is he considered a source of pride within the community due to his accomplishments? Or is he an embarrassment due to decisions like Net Neutrality? Or, is it a complete no-op and the Indian/Indian-American community basically doesn't think about him either way? Edit: I'm not sure why the downvotes. There are very few (if any?) Indian…

You're postulating an imaginary hive mind on the part of "Indian-Americans" then asking how ethnically tribal it is. It's like asking if whitey is proud of Donald Trump. The problems start before the question is halfway asked.

I am not postulating a hive mind, and my question is not based on any racism (as you are implying).

Your DJT analogy is wrong because every single president has been white, so DJT's rise to prominence is not exceptional in that regard.

A better analogy, and hopefully it demonstrates the nature of my question: One can ask whether Barack Obama is generally well-regarded as a source of pride in the African-American community, or seen negatively, or as a no-op. That question has a very clear answer.

Similarly, few Indian-Americans have risen to prominence in the US government, and I wondered if that serves as a source of pride, or the opposite due to his policies, or neither.

Re: Ajit Pai calls California’s net neutrality rules “illegal”

#66

> It follows that only the federal government can set regulatory policy in this area. For if individual states like California regulate the Internet, this will directly impact citizens in other states. -- Pai Interesting argument. Could his reasoning be used to block attempts by states (NC, I'm looking at you!) to interfere with municipal broadband?

Your question has no simple answer because Pai's reasoning is based on suspect premises.

The California bill merely controls which vendors that the State of California can purchases services from. This type of regulation is premised on a long-established limitation on the extent of Federal powers; namely, that the Federal Government has no power to directly regulate State policies, and in particular its choice of vendors. The logic is that a State is a sovereign political entity, and sovereignty means that there must be a bright line somewhere where the State is completely independent.

As that line stands today, the vast majority of legal scholars would tell you that California is well within its rights to control the contractual terms with its vendors, free from Federal constraints.[1] In fact, the original bill was pulled and amended so ensure it fit squarely within these allowances. (At least, that's the story of the committee members who delayed it.) The closest SCOTUS has allowed the Federal government to control contractual policies of the State involved employment, where SCOTUS permitted enforcement of the Fair Labor Standards Act against State government employers. But it was a close call, most of the conservatives were in dissent, and almost all conservatives have subsequently at least paid lip-service to criticisms of that decision.

That said, there may be strong legal arguments that permit the Federal government to interpose themselves between the State and municipalities without moving that bright line. There are many ways to distinguish and distance municipalities from the State itself.

Also, it's becoming difficult to deny at this point that as conservatives have come to dominate the Federal government, conservative policy arguments have become increasingly supportive of stronger Federal regulatory powers. It's excused as a necessary evil for defending laissez faire economic principles[2], but that's just face-saving. And these arguments are being adopted by conservatives across the spectrum, including (and especially?) among jurists.

[1] At least constraints flowing from Commerce Clause powers. Constraints flowing from the 14th Amendment are a different matter because the 14th Amendment imposes explicit limitations on States and explicitly gives Congress legislative powers to enforce those limitations. But even then there's a bright line Congress cannot cross, albeit a more narrowly circumscribed line.

[2] And don't even get me started on the fact that Net Neutrality is, IMHO, a very pro free market policy. It's no more restrictive of a "free market" than are crimes prohibiting fraud. There comes a point at which one's freedom impinges upon the freedom of others to the extent that there's a net loss of economic freedom. Furthermore, there are many examples of market legislation intended to overcome transactional inefficiencies that inhibit or prevent markets from reaching more optimal outcomes. Its why we even have laws at all, rather than relying upon everybody to explicitly contract with everybody else for every little interaction.

Re: Ajit Pai calls California’s net neutrality rules “illegal”

#67

> It follows that only the federal government can set regulatory policy in this area. For if individual states like California regulate the Internet, this will directly impact citizens in other states. -- Pai Interesting argument. Could his reasoning be used to block attempts by states (NC, I'm looking at you!) to interfere with municipal broadband?

I mean it's an argument against a federal system in general, when you think about it. Any regulation California passes is going to affect what is sold all over the country, because businesses can't afford to ignore it and making a special California version is more complicated than just complying in the base product.

The "it's going to be too expensive and complicated" argument has been used by every group ever opposed to any new regulation.

Re: Ajit Pai calls California’s net neutrality rules “illegal”

#68
post #63
post #35

Ah, the hypocrisy of the "States Rights" crowd: They're all for it, until they don't like what a state wants to do.

The "State's Rights" crowd is also generally synonymous with the "Rule of Law" crowd. I don't see hypocrisy in supporting the application of law as it is written while opposing the existence of said law itself. Laws are not immutable and there's a process for changing/repealing them (legislation) as well as a separate process for invalidating them based on constitutional merit (judicial). Until both those processes h…

[deleted]

Re: Ajit Pai calls California’s net neutrality rules “illegal”

#69
post #29

I believe the entire purpose of passing that law was for California to say "come at me bro" to the Federal government, and force a showdown on the issue. I doubt the California lawmakers ever expected it to actually go into effect, and not get blocked by lawsuits the moment the ink is dry.

There's another bill that ties net neutrality to state contracts. It would forbid the state from signing contracts with ISPs that don't follow net neutrality. They could also tack on taxes to non-compliance ISPs. The State will ultimately win the fight. It was very short-sighted for ISPs to make this federal issue because it would have just ended up with states.

Re: Ajit Pai calls California’s net neutrality rules “illegal”

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know id you're right or wrong about California's overreach. Can you give a few supporting examples?

Well they thumb their nose at the constitution when it comes to the 2A and they thumb their nose at the federal government itself when it comes to weed for starters. Some of their policies regarding illegal aliens (though this is more of a city by city thing) are arguably in direct contradiction with federal law. A lot of the rulings the 9th circuit has come up with over the years look like they came out of left fiel…

Say what you want about the 9th circuit, it is an organ of the Federal Government so it makes a strange example.
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