Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

newyorker.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 120 posts

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#61

Post by Fomite »

mrchicity wrote: post #48
Fomite wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Test scores are race-blind and fair." This is not axiomatically true.

Why are they unfair? I've heard the old saw about the 1980s SATs asking some analogy with a regatta:yacht, but what bias has been uncovered lately? And why is this bias mostly helping Asians, a minority group, who more likely to be learning English as a second language?

There are a number of just-so stories you can make about them being either unfair or fair - but the education field doesn't consider this a settled question, and unless you're looking at the data in a systematic fashion with a clearly defined outcome and access to lots of control variables, you can't actually be sure the test yields the "best" students.

And indeed, the definition of "best" in this context is circular.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you can't be certain you're right.

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#62

Post by confiscate »

icelancer wrote: post #35
confiscate wrote: post #24

Test scores are race-blind and fair. Test instructors do not give more scores to a test because they see it was completed by an Asian test-taker. It's great that schools are looking for a better "mix" of ethnicities in the incoming class, but they should encourage the underrepresented ethnicities to do better, in tests or other race-blind admission standards. They should not put an admission "cap" based on the color…

>> Test scores are race-blind and fair. Kind of. There is a fair criticism to be made about tests being unintentionally culturally slanted towards the people that make them, often white Americans. Of course, in this case, your point is correct, since the people that are overindexing on the tests are Asian-Americans.

Agree.

If a test contains questions that favor a particular race, then that is an outright problem, and schools should stop that.

In this case, it's actually the opposite. When a test is in English, often Asians have to learn English, which is often not their primary language at home. So by default, an English-speaking race taking a test, has a HUGE advantage over an Asian test taker.

Which is why the stereotype is that "asians are good at math". Asians are NOT particularly good in math. It's just that in math tests, it's mostly numbers. The language barrier becomes less of an issue, the playing field levels out, so you suddenly notice Asians tend to get higher scores.

I suspect it would be the same for, say, geography tests, if the same test was translated to an Asian language. Suddenly "Asians are good at geography". Not really.

If anything, tests in English are culturally slanted away from Asians where English is often not their primary language.

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#64

Post by ericdykstra »

iosDrone wrote: post #50
ericdykstra wrote: post #20

The entire doctrine of Disparate Impact, and Affirmative Action which is borne from it, is one of the most illiberal policies in America. I really hope a constitutionalist Supreme Court can reverse this madness. On Affirmative Action in specific, here's a great interview from Sowell about the unintended consequences that arise from the awful policy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVvnTByzTmA

It will be ruled unconstitutional within two years. The way to stop discrimination based on race is to stop discriminating based on race.

I really hope so, as there is so much wrong with it. To begin with, the 80% rule creates an impossible standard of "diversity" that doesn't match the reality of how different groups of people have different tendencies and preferences.

The impossible standard mixed with the conflicting doctrines of Disparate Treatment and Disparate Impact mean that every major company has to settle diversity lawsuits for hundreds of millions or into the billions of dollars, no matter what their policy is.

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#65

Post by keepper »

So lets say you have a really big balancing scale[1]....

And there's a chute that's been feeding twice as much sand to one side, for hundreds of years....

What do you do to balance it?

  a) Distribute sand equally to each side
  b) Distribute substantially more sand to one side
  c) Make like the imbalance did not happen and ignore it.
If the answer is obvious to the above, then why is leveling the field for historically disenfranchised people an issue? I am referring to Black Americans and Native Americans.

Nigerian Americans are some of the most successful immigrants[2]. Asian Immigrants, Hispanic Immigrants, Indian Immigrants, Eastern European immigrants, all tend to do decent well. What do they all have in common? They are immigrants! Immigrants that don't have the baggage of hundreds of years of oppression in their new country. They used to be disadvantaged in their own country. But coming to a new country does something... a new start.

  I should know, my parents where such immigrants.
But Native Americans[3], and Native Blacks (as in not recently immigrated) continue to do the worst in the achievement scale. Maybe, just maybe... we start realizing that they both share the same initial crutch.. the scale was tipped way against them, until quite recently.[4]

And yes, nitpick my points away, the underlying issue is still valid.. immigrants tend to do well in a new country, imbalances can't be corrected by neutrality going forward, and historically disenfranchised people tend to do bad in the country they are disenfranchised... see poor asians in asia or in india...

  [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=balancing+scale
  [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-01-12/africa-is-sending-us-its-best-and-brightest
  [3] http://indianyouth.org/american-indian-life/poverty-cycle
  [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-Ethnic_Placement_Act

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#66

Post by ericdykstra »

gnicholas wrote: post #44
dilap wrote: post #11

Here's another, more critical take on the plan: https://quillette.com/2018/06/27/bill-de-blasios-plan-to-pur... I think it's terrible. It's robbing poor kids of a rare opportunity to get a first-rate education, to make elites feel better about themselves. If you insist that the racial demographics of the schools match those of the city, a much better way to do it is to keep the admissions test, but simply take the to…

> simply take the top N% w/in each racial bucket, rather than globally This would benefit wealthy Black/Latino kids, whose parents can afford test prep. If the goal is to have a more racially diverse student body, it accomplishes that goal. But if the goal is to help disadvantaged kids get ahead, then it's not useful.

This is already what happens with the current policies. Affirmative Action hasn't had any benefit to Black kids except those from affluent two-parent families.

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#67

Post by cardplayer »

guard0g wrote: post #59

Around the country, there's a concerted effort to eliminate magnet schools for much the same rationale. Wealthy NY folks send their kids to private schools like Dalton, Trinity, Packer, etc... Why not make a system that seeks economic parity rather racial parity, and eliminate the moats around private schools?

How about we just improve the quality of public school education with a large tax on weapon sales?

Better schools and maybe fewer school shootings...maybe. America has never much cared for its children so yeah. shrugs

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#68

Post by guard0g »

marris wrote: post #42

Yup. It's especially disheartening that most of the discussion centers around "privilege" and the supposed ease of coasting into one of these schools if parents pay for test prep. Anyone can get test prep books from the New York Public library and practice, practice, practice. The fact that so few members from some groups attend the school says far more about the importance of education in their homes than it does ab…

Sadly, there is little discussion of the importance of effort, hard work, persistence, and grit in the success of Asian American students...

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#69

Post by whiddershins »

The elimination of standard testing as the only application criteria for New York schools such as Stuyvesant is a travesty.

Opinion pieces on this topic consistently misrepresent the situation. Many, many, elite High schools in Nyc are applied to on the basis of a wide variety of criteria. Grades, essays, you name it. These schools have a wonderful mix of admissions processes which allows each of them to capture a portion of promising students that others may miss.

There are exactly 3 High Schools that exclusively use one standardized test. Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, and Brooklyn Tech.

Even if these schools favor people who are “good at tests” that’s fine! The other amazing high schools can grab the students who are talented in other ways.

Removing those three disadvantages people who might be highly motivated and/or intelligent but have trouble meeting other vague criteria. That’s terrible and discriminatory. It favors conformity in the best case, and quota filling in the worst.

Re: Why Asian-Americans feel powerless in New York’s elite high schools

#70

Post by dmurray »

icelancer wrote: post #34

This is pretty standard and has been going on for decades. Asian-Americans are the last race you can openly commit racist policies against without dogwhistling. I don't know what it is, maybe it's because they are politically underreprsented or it's because they are underrepresented in popular culture in general, or their general attitude to be anti-political in nature, but it's just totally fine to withhold educatio…

I'm pretty sure you can also "openly commit racist policies against" white people and get away with it.
Post reply on HN