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The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

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Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#61

Post by [deleted] »

Xeoncross wrote: post #51
chroem- wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very dangerous way of thinking. I can think of at least five people in my social network who have died as a direct result of seeking naturopathic medicine for their serious illnesses instead of proper medical care. Please do not encourage more people to do this.

I can think of 250,000 people in the United States alone who died last year because they sought proper medical care but died because of medical mistakes and bad prescriptions. In addition there were those that were harmed, but not fatally (of whom I know several). https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/study_su...

[deleted]

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#62

Post by DubiousPusher »

asdf1234tx wrote: post #39

I'm no expert, but here's the sequence (in reverse order) as I see it (for now): bad-things-happening Anything that treats "bad things happening", or "crazed immune system", or "crazed gut bacteria", will be a bandaid. I think our first world lifestyles create a perfect storm of bad living that undermines the foundations of a healthy human being from a multitude of vectors. Not enough sunlight, not enough unprocessed…

The years before I developed Ankylosis Spondylitis I slept 8-10 hours a night, walked everywhere (I can't drive), ate a varied diet of food I prepared myself from scratch every day, ran an average of 24 miles a week, spent 3 hours a week in weight training, had a single sexual partner, didn't smoke, barely drank, took no prescription medications, used virtually no over the counter medicine, bathed daily, always wore clean clothes, and read my copy of Tao Te Ching every night.

Not sure what I did to bring this on myself. Must've been all the radiation from my smart phone.

So here we have two anecdotes, one as equally useless as the other for understanding anything about the way the universe works.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#63

Post by rosegold »

zilian wrote: post #41
asdf1234tx wrote: post #39

I'm no expert, but here's the sequence (in reverse order) as I see it (for now): bad-things-happening Anything that treats "bad things happening", or "crazed immune system", or "crazed gut bacteria", will be a bandaid. I think our first world lifestyles create a perfect storm of bad living that undermines the foundations of a healthy human being from a multitude of vectors. Not enough sunlight, not enough unprocessed…

I know it's very tempting to blame everything to our "1st world bad living", but please do not spread misinformation like this about autoimmune diseases. I am 27, always ate healthy and was very active, yet I started developing ankylosing spondylytis 3 years ago, a very painful AI disease which attacks your articulations. And you know what ? We know that many Pharaohs of ancient Egypt had it too, including Ramses II…

A recent study indicates clinical evidence for remission through diet in IBD:

"Clinical remission was achieved by week 6 by 11/15 (73%) of study participants, and all 11 maintained clinical remission during the maintenance phase of the study."

Konijeti, Gauree Gupta et al. “Efficacy of the Autoimmune Protocol Diet for Inflammatory Bowel Disease.” Inflammatory bowel diseases 23.11 (2017): 2054–2060. PMC. Web. 9 Apr. 2018.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5647120/

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#65

Post by banach »

chroem- wrote: post #45
chiefalchemist wrote: post #14

The gut is the new "great unknown." Understanding it takes a more holistic approach. Western medicine / science is typically not very holistic-centric. It's not going to surprise me if many of the cures / remedies offered by "non traditional medicine" (read: lessons from human history) little by litte get more credit for their worthiness.

This is a very dangerous way of thinking. I can think of at least five people in my social network who have died as a direct result of seeking naturopathic medicine for their serious illnesses instead of proper medical care. Please do not encourage more people to do this.

There are conditions that are considered incurable by "proper" medicine (e.g. Alzheimer's disease) and discouraging people from looking elsewhere (e.g. http://www.aging-us.com/article/100690) in those cases is just as dangerous. People are capable of considering multiple options simultaneously, and should be encouraged to inform themselves about the available treatments. In cases when two medical theories are truly incompatible, give people the right to decide what gamble they want to take, and understand that, in both cases, outcomes are uncertain.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#66

Post by bsder »

dang wrote: post #54
paulie_a wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mind being downed for an unpopular opinion, but calling out fake doctors should not be a reason to get flagged... And yes they are fake doctors.

Maybe so, but these discussions are all the same and always turn uncivil, so they're off topic here. There are lots of other places on the internet to argue about them.

Then please flag the original posting as well.

Allowing people to promulgate pseudoscience without following up with a strong counter-response is how we wound up with anti-vaxxers.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#67

Post by baddox »

Xeoncross wrote: post #51
chroem- wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very dangerous way of thinking. I can think of at least five people in my social network who have died as a direct result of seeking naturopathic medicine for their serious illnesses instead of proper medical care. Please do not encourage more people to do this.

I can think of 250,000 people in the United States alone who died last year because they sought proper medical care but died because of medical mistakes and bad prescriptions. In addition there were those that were harmed, but not fatally (of whom I know several). https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/study_su...

I think both examples need to provide a denominator.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#68

Post by ImaCake »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #14

The gut is the new "great unknown." Understanding it takes a more holistic approach. Western medicine / science is typically not very holistic-centric. It's not going to surprise me if many of the cures / remedies offered by "non traditional medicine" (read: lessons from human history) little by litte get more credit for their worthiness.

The medical establishment offers the best preventative cure for many of these diseases: eat a variety of food and exercise regularly. Further; be born through the vagina, drink brest milk, and eat dirt.

The problem is people aren't educated about the Hygiene Hypothesis and often succumb to bad habits and addictive food.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#69

Post by losteric »

m_fayer wrote: post #48
losteric wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, science does have a monopoly on proven medicine. The scientific method is literally how we understand what and why things work. Traditional medicine is just cultural memory from millennia of blind trial and error... medicinal dogma. Some of it works, but research and clinical trials have repeatedly shown most traditional treatments are placebo at best.

A millennia of trial and error vs a century or so of methodical science. Certainly the science is much more effective, but there must be some gems in that great big pile of trial and error too. Also we shouldn't underestimate the healing power of careful attention, empathy, and placebo effects.

Yes... that's what I said... finding new treatments is like finding needles in a haystack, and science is the magnet.

When it comes to traditional medicine, most of the haystack is really just hay. Historical trial and error told people what not to do, but it did not distinguish between ineffective and successful treatment due to generally high mortality rates and lack of rigorous testing.

If you have time, browse through ancient western medicine - you will notice almost none of it passed scientific rigor.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#70

Post by numismatex »

Retric wrote: post #60
Xeoncross wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of 250,000 people in the United States alone who died last year because they sought proper medical care but died because of medical mistakes and bad prescriptions. In addition there were those that were harmed, but not fatally (of whom I know several). https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/study_su...

That's a very misleading statistic, many of these people might have lived with the best possible care but would have still died without treatment. Heathy people rarely seek major surgery for example.

Wealthy people are those who do, for example.
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