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The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

sciencedaily.com

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Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#41

Post by zilian »

asdf1234tx wrote: post #39

I'm no expert, but here's the sequence (in reverse order) as I see it (for now): bad-things-happening Anything that treats "bad things happening", or "crazed immune system", or "crazed gut bacteria", will be a bandaid. I think our first world lifestyles create a perfect storm of bad living that undermines the foundations of a healthy human being from a multitude of vectors. Not enough sunlight, not enough unprocessed…

I know it's very tempting to blame everything to our "1st world bad living", but please do not spread misinformation like this about autoimmune diseases. I am 27, always ate healthy and was very active, yet I started developing ankylosing spondylytis 3 years ago, a very painful AI disease which attacks your articulations.

And you know what ? We know that many Pharaohs of ancient Egypt had it too, including Ramses II : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12548434

So long for the 1st-world, industrialized society as the root of all evils...

Moreover, sounds like your friend was on biologics. Sure, losing 75pds will help lowering the inflammation and pressure on articulations anyway. But there's NO evidence it's not just a pause in flares, sorry for your friend. I met many people with AI diseases and to date have met no one who can prove he "healed" with a change in diet. Happy to discuss about it in PM if some read that comment !

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#42

Post by zilian »

JoshMnem wrote: post #36
JoshMnem wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why people are downvoting you. Things like microbiome, calorie restriction, diet, and water fasting are very promising "non-traditional" areas for dealing with systemic inflammation, and they definitely can work. Researchers should be paying more attention to those areas. Doctors often have no good answers for those diseases -- they often don't even diagnose them promptly and correctly. There is some res…

I'm a skeptic, but knee-jerk skepticism is sometimes as bad as woo. I'm guessing that the downvoters have no experience with these kinds of conditions or what it's like to deal with the medical system around autoimmune conditions. I could tell you many stories about it. I know one person who didn't get his autoimmune disease correctly diagnosed for 20 years. He now has serious problems due to lack of treatment for al…

As a matter of fact, I do know what you're talking about (AS). And I can't downvote, but I would ! ;) Promising mountains with "diets" is as bad or worse than doctors not really considering what's it like to live with autoimmune diseases / having trouble establishing diagnosis. Please link to peer-reviewed, serious papers showing results in double-blind studies if you wish to convince fellow hackers.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#43

Post by dang »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #16
sound1 wrote: post #11

I went to an ayurvedic doctor (in India, my friend insisted) and he said the exact same thing. He even said all allergy problems arise because of issuees in the digestive tract. At the time I thought he was just saying it but who knows there might be some truth in what he said.

> I went to an ayurvedic doctor “Ayurveda medicine is considered pseudoscientific” [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda third paragraph

Please don't turn bait into outright flamewars. It's off topic.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#44

Post by dang »

paulie_a wrote: post #28
sound1 wrote: post #11

I went to an ayurvedic doctor (in India, my friend insisted) and he said the exact same thing. He even said all allergy problems arise because of issuees in the digestive tract. At the time I thought he was just saying it but who knows there might be some truth in what he said.

> ayurvedic doctor So not a real doctor

Please don't, just because someone mentioned something like that. It only leads to predictable places.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#45

Post by chroem- »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #14

The gut is the new "great unknown." Understanding it takes a more holistic approach. Western medicine / science is typically not very holistic-centric. It's not going to surprise me if many of the cures / remedies offered by "non traditional medicine" (read: lessons from human history) little by litte get more credit for their worthiness.

This is a very dangerous way of thinking. I can think of at least five people in my social network who have died as a direct result of seeking naturopathic medicine for their serious illnesses instead of proper medical care. Please do not encourage more people to do this.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#46

Post by JoshMnem »

zilian wrote: post #42
JoshMnem wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a skeptic, but knee-jerk skepticism is sometimes as bad as woo. I'm guessing that the downvoters have no experience with these kinds of conditions or what it's like to deal with the medical system around autoimmune conditions. I could tell you many stories about it. I know one person who didn't get his autoimmune disease correctly diagnosed for 20 years. He now has serious problems due to lack of treatment for al…

As a matter of fact, I do know what you're talking about (AS). And I can't downvote, but I would ! ;) Promising mountains with "diets" is as bad or worse than doctors not really considering what's it like to live with autoimmune diseases / having trouble establishing diagnosis. Please link to peer-reviewed, serious papers showing results in double-blind studies if you wish to convince fellow hackers.

You're reading too much into what I'm saying. I didn't promise mountains with "diets". I said that "Researchers should be paying more attention to those areas." I'm definitely not saying that the answer is going to be "just stop eating" or curing yourself with woo like homeopathy and goji berries.

I don't think that something like water fasting will cure the autoimmune conditions of most people, but it's something that has such a dramatic effect on some autoimmune conditions that there should be more research in that area.

Have you ever done 3-5 day water fasts with nothing but water? Hold your reaction until you have investigated the dramatic effects (but not cures) it has on many people with autoimmune conditions.

I'm working this afternoon and don't have time to find links for you, but you can find my email address on my profile if you have questions about it.

Edit: please send me an email if you read this. I will email you some links later if you will send me your constructive opinions after you read them. I think you may find the information interesting and possibly useful.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#47

Post by rosegold »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #15
aviv wrote: post #12

Another reason why water fasting is highly effective at curing many diseases.

> water fasting is highly effective at curing many diseases Has this been demonstrated?

Yes, there is a hospital in South Africa that is successfully using water fasting in autoimmune disease. I'll pull some documentation and post.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#48

Post by m_fayer »

losteric wrote: post #38
smallnamespace wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, we're not at the point where science possesses a monopoly on working medicine. Believing that every pre-scientific practice is pure hocus-pocus that should be rejected out of hand seems to be a strange conceit.

However, science does have a monopoly on proven medicine. The scientific method is literally how we understand what and why things work. Traditional medicine is just cultural memory from millennia of blind trial and error... medicinal dogma. Some of it works, but research and clinical trials have repeatedly shown most traditional treatments are placebo at best.

A millennia of trial and error vs a century or so of methodical science. Certainly the science is much more effective, but there must be some gems in that great big pile of trial and error too.

Also we shouldn't underestimate the healing power of careful attention, empathy, and placebo effects.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#49

Post by paulie_a »

dang wrote: post #44
paulie_a wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ayurvedic doctor So not a real doctor

Please don't, just because someone mentioned something like that. It only leads to predictable places.

I don't mind being downed for an unpopular opinion, but calling out fake doctors should not be a reason to get flagged... And yes they are fake doctors.

Re: The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

#50

Post by paulie_a »

etiam wrote: post #30
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I went to an ayurvedic doctor “Ayurveda medicine is considered pseudoscientific” [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda third paragraph

> “Ayurveda medicine is considered pseudoscientific” [1]. I'm sure it is. By whom and why? And more to the point, is it right in this case, regardless of its scientific status.

By actual science. Ayurveda isn't even pseudoscience. It's complete bullshit and nothing more.
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