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You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

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Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#61

Post by rsync »

nextos wrote: post #50
mieseratte wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, here's what I don't understand? If it causes societal trouble why let all these troublesome groups in? Does Denmark have some long history as a "nation of immigrants" like the United States does or is this some sort of self-inflicted punishment?

Denmark got a first wave of immigration in the 60s. Mostly Turkish people. They are reasonably well integrated. The problem comes from the recent wave and semi-open borders within EU that make it easy for some mafias to move into the country to commit crime. It's a tought problem.

"Denmark got a first wave of immigration in the 60s. Mostly Turkish people. They are reasonably well integrated."

I met a group of young, liberal, well-educated Danes on a trip to Japan once and later, accepted their invitation to visit Denmark, where I stayed for about ten days.

Make no mistake - these were picture-perfect Copenhagen Danes with exactly the liberal and progressive bent that you would expect and they were quite well educated and relatively wealthy (one of them even had a car!).

These people did not beat around the bush: they can't stand "the turks", they don't understand why they are there or why they behave the way they do and they cannot believe that their society has been infiltrated in this way.

It wasn't hateful, or even racist per se ... just a very pragmatic rejection of events.

This was in 2004 - I can't imagine they feel any better now.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#62

Post by DanAndersen »

torpfactory wrote: post #30

I think you see these effects in microcosm throughout the US as well. I grew up in Wisconsin and there were definitely many similarities: * Campfire wood for sale next to the highway with an unlocked mailbox for your payment (everyone else's payment just sitting there...). * Car stuck in the snowbank? Every time it happened to me, the very first car to come along has stopped to help dig it out. * At least in rural ar…

A couple summers back, I went to a state park in rural Indiana, where there was a working farm set up to resemble historical 1920s Midwestern life. The farm and its farmhouse were almost completely deserted except for myself, and I remember being struck by the fact that there was a large amount of homegrown produce for sale in the house completely on an honor system. Just a pile of squash on a kitchen table with a sign indicating price and a glass jar with money in it. It was a small thing, but it was great to see that that was possible, and it felt good for me to join in.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#63

Post by KozmoNau7 »

PhilipA wrote: post #8

Being from Denmark, but living in the US now, I see the main problem with Denmark that a lot of people are complacent. While the system works now, I doubt it will be positive in the long run. We are not hungry enough, and for too many people right now it isn't worth it to work (Too little difference between working wage and welfare). Again, this is just a few negative statements, there are lot of positive areas (Free…

Why is the that the threat of abject poverty the only way to motivate poor/middle-class people, while pre-gifting tax cuts seems to be the only way to motivate rich people?

for too many people right now it isn't worth it to work (Too little difference between working wage and welfare)

That is complete nonsense, peddled by the current government and their think tank lapdogs (including CEPOS). They've only ever been able to find a few persons here and there who even barely fit their bogeyman of a deliberately workshy person, while the vast majority of unemployed people would love to have a job.

CEPOS et al. also tend to include people with severely limited ability to work in their grouping of "lazy" workshy people.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#64

Post by PhilipA »

RobertoG wrote: post #18
PhilipA wrote: post #8

Being from Denmark, but living in the US now, I see the main problem with Denmark that a lot of people are complacent. While the system works now, I doubt it will be positive in the long run. We are not hungry enough, and for too many people right now it isn't worth it to work (Too little difference between working wage and welfare). Again, this is just a few negative statements, there are lot of positive areas (Free…

You say that the main problem with Denmark is that people is complacent, but you don't explain why being complacent is a problem. Is it so bad that people have "complacent" lives when there is enough resources? Maybe, people should aspire to a life of heroic struggled nevermind the circumstances?

Being complacent is 'perfect' from a state of mind - don't get me wrong, this is why we are happy. The issue is that people who are complacent are not as hungry, and we need a bit of the hunger and drive to continue to have the wealth that we have been used to.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#65

Post by KozmoNau7 »

arghwhat wrote: post #19
PhilipA wrote: post #8

Being from Denmark, but living in the US now, I see the main problem with Denmark that a lot of people are complacent. While the system works now, I doubt it will be positive in the long run. We are not hungry enough, and for too many people right now it isn't worth it to work (Too little difference between working wage and welfare). Again, this is just a few negative statements, there are lot of positive areas (Free…

At the same time, being from Denmark, I also think we have a strong tendency for never being satisfied. I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. I feel like it should be handled differently, such as through not giving you money, but rather feeding you directly. A system that ensures health and survival , nothing more. I still remember the voice of some people being…

I do have a negative mindset against I welfare system and its lack of work incentive, though. I feel like it should be handled differently, such as through not giving you money, but rather feeding you directly. A system that ensures health and survival, nothing more.

Why shouldn't unemployed people be allowed to live a comfortable life, not just the bare minimum of subsistence?

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#66

Post by KozmoNau7 »

jcims wrote: post #29
PhilipA wrote: post #8

Being from Denmark, but living in the US now, I see the main problem with Denmark that a lot of people are complacent. While the system works now, I doubt it will be positive in the long run. We are not hungry enough, and for too many people right now it isn't worth it to work (Too little difference between working wage and welfare). Again, this is just a few negative statements, there are lot of positive areas (Free…

How is the pursuit of exceptional achievement perceived in Denmark? What do little Danes want to do when they grow up?

We absolutely don't mind people who strive for greatness, as long as they remember to contribute back to society and don't run off to Switzerland or Monaco with all their money.

We just don't like boastful overly prideful US-style "look at me!" self-aggrandizement and egotism.

You did well, without exploiting other people or breaking the law? Good for you, and good for society when you give back!

Just don't be a dick.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#67

Post by Max-q »

Spooky23 wrote: post #42
0xcde4c3db wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What arguments are those, exactly? What's the significance of a smaller population or homogeneity? Has any such relation been rigorously studied, or is it just speculation?

Culture drives attitude and perception. People who look, worship (or not), work and have other things alike then to cluster together and have a sort of herd mentality. In a place like the US, we have dramatically different groups of people all over the place. In Norway or Denmark, the differences are nonexistent to an American eye.

>In Norway or Denmark, the differences are nonexistent to an American eye.

In Oslo, capital of Norway, 32% of the population are immigrants.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#68

Post by hirundo »

The internet is trumping geography. As we live progressively more of our lives online, we interact with progressively more different people. It becomes progressively less important how much trust we have for our meatspace neighbors. Most of us have had oodles of conversations and economic transactions with people on other continents while the people next door remain strangers.

With all of that online interacting, global interpersonal trust may rise, but won't approach Danish levels in our lifetimes. We cannot base our social systems on trust. But we can base them on transparency, which, eventually, builds trust.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#69

Post by KozmoNau7 »

giovannicarruba wrote: post #28

I wonder why five islamic terrorist attacks didn't seem to have any impact on Denmark, while France and Germany have escalated their police states to incredible levels. Is it also because of all the trust? Do people in Denmark maybe trust that the police will catch the perpetrators, while we in Germany know that the Police no longer even tries to catch petty thieves and could never be trusted to avoid a terrorist plo…

"Keep calm and carry on" isn't just a UK thing.

If we let ourselves live in fear, we've lost.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#70

Post by rsync »

You can have perfect trains and bicycles everywhere or you can invent jazz and snowboarding. You can't do both.

As someone who lives in the US but does business, and travels, in Europe frequently, I would prefer that the immigrants come to the melting pot (the US) and that the European countries retain their distinctiveness.

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