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Who Killed the Junior Developer?

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Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#61

Post by CydeWeys »

mooreds wrote: post #39

It is a tragedy of the commons scenario. Everyone wants senior devs, who were at one point junior devs. No one wants to train junior devs. The OP points out why: * cheaper to have juniorish work done overseas * juniorish work is automated away * juniors on a team slow it down (compared to a team of all seniors) So everyone competes for the senior talent. A more sophisticated long term analysis might look at the benef…

A key point that you're missing is that junior devs are likely to jump ship at least once in their career trajectory before they become senior devs. So yes, junior devs do need to be trained by someone, but if you're going to put in a lot of work and not receive much of the benefit, it's not in your best interest.

There's a variety of reasons for why devs jump ship so often (including compensation), but unless you can tackle that problem first and solve it, it doesn't make sense to jump head-first into expanded junior dev mentorship.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#62

Post by CryoLogic »

maxxxxx wrote: post #50
emodendroket wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, fair enough. I agree with you; I also like to challenge myself with new things. But I like to go home at the end of the day too, you know? Sometimes I think programmer culture gets too self-flagellating.

I hate the whole side-project-after-work thing. Unless you have a real business idea to pursue I think 40 hours per week of focused work is plenty. There are a lot of other cool things in life.

I agree completely. But in a vacuum, the developer who codes outside of work probably has more knowledge and experience than the developer who works 40h/week and goes off to other things. Even considering diminishing returns.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#63

Post by CydeWeys »

kenhwang wrote: post #46
jarjoura wrote: post #7

Most junior level positions are being filled with the massive influx of new grads from really strong intern programs at most companies now. If you're in college now, make sure you get an internship at a company in your field. If it's too late for that, then you'll have to do a little extra work and probably work on a couple side projects and post them on GitHub. That first job will always be the hardest to get, so do…

Definitely agree with this. It's not that the junior developer position doesn't exist anymore, it's that there's an overwhelming supply of strong candidates with the CS pedigree, multiple internships, side projects, and well balanced technical/soft skills. For juniors to be cost effective/neutral, you can only really have 1-2 per mid/senior engineer. Most companies don't have that many mid/senior engineers to begin w…

> For juniors to be cost effective/neutral, you can only really have 1-2 per mid/senior engineer. Most companies don't have that many mid/senior engineers to begin with, much less ones that are willing to take on a junior to mentor for a year or two.

I think you're off by the reciprocal of the ratio. It should be something like two experienced devs per junior dev. Any more junior devs than that and your senior devs are spending too much of their time mentoring and not enough time getting their tasks done, which is going to frustrate them. Fortunately, with a good junior dev, it doesn't take long at all to reach mid-level dev. I've seen it happen in under a year for smart new grads.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#64

Post by paulddraper »

ben_jones wrote: post #8

Its a large mix of problems. There is infinitely more demand for the top ~20% of developers then the bottom ~80%. There is a glut of new undergrads and transitioning professionals. There is a larger-then-other-industries capital expenditure in hiring, training, and managing, developers - which compounds the hiring difficulties of most small companies including almost every start-up. Oh and there's massive conglomerat…

> paying big $$$ for a CS degree

This isn't law...even the cheap universities offer CS degrees.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#65

Post by PeterisP »

emodendroket wrote: post #36
maxxxxx wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's something I have noticed too. In the 90s most people I worked with were genuinely interested in the work and often came from very eclectic backgrounds. Almost nobody had a CS degree. Now it seems a lot of people go into programming because it pays well and looks like a good career but they don't really care for tech. I definitely found the industry more fun in the 90s but that may just be the fact it's becomin…

I don't think someone necessarily has to live and breathe code to be good at their job. That kind of focus is hard to maintain forever. When I was new I was constantly reading programming books and now, like, I'm still interested, but other things are going on in my life that also need my attention, you know?

You can lead a horse to the water but you can't make him drink.

It's completely okay to "just" do your job professionally. However, skill development, transfer of skills to junior developers and mentoring is a different issue - if you want to learn from me, you have to want to learn; if you're just here for the paycheck, then I'm not going to go out of my way to educate you even if (which is the case for many junior developers) you're unable to actually do your tasks properly on your own without this help.

People with the desire and capacity to learn go over the "junior" phase very quickly (over a short internship or already during college) and become able to do decent work on their own; but those who don't and really need an actual prolonged "junior developer" role on the team... there's no incentive for the employer to do that, and there's no incentive for the colleagues to spend their effort if it seems wasted on someone who's not into it.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#66

Post by Joof »

CydeWeys wrote: post #61
mooreds wrote: post #39

It is a tragedy of the commons scenario. Everyone wants senior devs, who were at one point junior devs. No one wants to train junior devs. The OP points out why: * cheaper to have juniorish work done overseas * juniorish work is automated away * juniors on a team slow it down (compared to a team of all seniors) So everyone competes for the senior talent. A more sophisticated long term analysis might look at the benef…

A key point that you're missing is that junior devs are likely to jump ship at least once in their career trajectory before they become senior devs. So yes, junior devs do need to be trained by someone , but if you're going to put in a lot of work and not receive much of the benefit, it's not in your best interest. There's a variety of reasons for why devs jump ship so often (including compensation), but unless you c…

You could poach them too. It could be a tragedy of the commons scenario, but it would be nice.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#67

Post by adventured »

Firebrand wrote: post #31
nathanaldensr wrote: post #6

I love mentoring. I always have. I used to help out other kids in my high school programming classes. Despite holding several high-level software development positions, what is the total number of times I've been asked by management to mentor more junior folks? Zero. I did it because I love sharing knowledge and I like seeing looks of understanding appear on my colleagues' faces when they "get something" for the firs…

How would you feel about mentoring non-technical people? Uber seems to be piloting an apprenticeship program for people from non-technical backgrounds: https://eng.uber.com/engineer-apprentices/ I don’t really know why Uber is doing it, but I wonder if in-house apprenticeship programs are going to become more of thing now.

Vocational + apprentice systems of all types are going to be a massive thing in the next ten years. Most likely we'll all be sick of hearing about it a few years from now. It's starting to pop up everywhere in the US, an idea that has caught the culture's imagination again. It's the ideal counter to the stupid practice of everybody must get a four year degree as a base qualification. And it's the only way the bottom half in the US are going to finally start making progress again.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#68

Post by CydeWeys »

maxxxxx wrote: post #50
emodendroket wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, fair enough. I agree with you; I also like to challenge myself with new things. But I like to go home at the end of the day too, you know? Sometimes I think programmer culture gets too self-flagellating.

I hate the whole side-project-after-work thing. Unless you have a real business idea to pursue I think 40 hours per week of focused work is plenty. There are a lot of other cool things in life.

My time spent on side projects went down close to zero just about the time I graduated and became employed full time working 40-45 hour weeks.

I don't see any problem with that though; I'm still learning a lot, and work towards switching projects/companies when that's no longer the case.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#69

Post by adjkant »

mac01021 wrote: post #40
adjkant wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. If you're graduating without an internship or two, you're in trouble.

Define "trouble". I'm ten years into my career now, but I graduated with no internships and feel like I've done OK.

As in it will be a lot harder to get your first job. Once you have that first position or two, it's not really trouble from there obviously. I'd also point out that the dynamics of the junior dev position and the competition have changed a lot since 10 years ago. I suspect this level of experience wasn't as needed in 2006 or 2010 (maybe in 08 after the market crash).

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#70

Post by emodendroket »

CryoLogic wrote: post #62
maxxxxx wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate the whole side-project-after-work thing. Unless you have a real business idea to pursue I think 40 hours per week of focused work is plenty. There are a lot of other cool things in life.

I agree completely. But in a vacuum, the developer who codes outside of work probably has more knowledge and experience than the developer who works 40h/week and goes off to other things. Even considering diminishing returns.

Yes and no. I think somebody a little more well-rounded may have other soft skills that are also important.
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