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Who Killed the Junior Developer?

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Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#31

Post by Firebrand »

nathanaldensr wrote: post #6

I love mentoring. I always have. I used to help out other kids in my high school programming classes. Despite holding several high-level software development positions, what is the total number of times I've been asked by management to mentor more junior folks? Zero. I did it because I love sharing knowledge and I like seeing looks of understanding appear on my colleagues' faces when they "get something" for the firs…

How would you feel about mentoring non-technical people? Uber seems to be piloting an apprenticeship program for people from non-technical backgrounds:

https://eng.uber.com/engineer-apprentices/

I don’t really know why Uber is doing it, but I wonder if in-house apprenticeship programs are going to become more of thing now.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#32

Post by maxxxxx »

CryoLogic wrote: post #17

The growth of undergrand CS program enrollment is pretty insane, same with bootcamps. Lots of these people have no real interest in the positions outside of pay, which is fine for most careers. But in tech we put a lot of value on self learning and interest. I've definitely seen the number of new grad applicants and bootcamp grad applicants at least quadruple in the past few years. Most of these can make an Angular a…

That's something I have noticed too. In the 90s most people I worked with were genuinely interested in the work and often came from very eclectic backgrounds. Almost nobody had a CS degree. Now it seems a lot of people go into programming because it pays well and looks like a good career but they don't really care for tech. I definitely found the industry more fun in the 90s but that may just be the fact it's becoming a mature industry.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#33

Post by broodbucket »

Is the junior job shortage just a valley bubble thing? I'm a young dev and there are grad/entry level positions everywhere I look, none of my peers have really had issues either.

How good (or bad) companies are at actually training their employees is another matter.

edit: typo

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#34

Post by emodendroket »

tensor wrote: post #19
lovich wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit of a chicken or the egg problem. Why stay at a company that doesn't invest in you?

Most developers doing the one year stint thing don't care about anything other than salary. No matter what you do for them they will jump after a year. Seeing that pattern on a resume a big warning sign. These people are simply mercenary and deserve to be treated as such.

Maybe, but how many times do people sign on at positions that either weren't at all what was pitched or else have changed so much as to be completely unrecognizable in a few years after the company changes hands and turns everyone over a few times?

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#35

Post by randomdata »

danjoc wrote: post #3

>the rate is anywhere from $190-$300 an hour Well there's your problem. Valley pricing. You can get Sr Devs much cheaper than that. Then you can afford to train up some juniors. I don't think that's the real problem though. Companies want you to take the risk/expense of learning a technology that might be obsolete next year. They'll pay you back in salary if you lucked up and mastered the right stack. If you didn't,…

> Well there's your problem. Valley pricing. You can get Sr Devs much cheaper than that.

The article seems to be referring to how much agencies are hiring out their senior developers for. Which, $190-300/hr. does not seem atypical in that scenario, even outside the valley. The developers themselves won't be making anywhere near that much.

Since this company seemingly makes its money by having the senior developers doing billable work for clients, the article suggests that the business doesn't want them spending time helping junior developers and thus not billing (or, perhaps, billing at the junior rate).

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#36

Post by emodendroket »

maxxxxx wrote: post #32
CryoLogic wrote: post #17

The growth of undergrand CS program enrollment is pretty insane, same with bootcamps. Lots of these people have no real interest in the positions outside of pay, which is fine for most careers. But in tech we put a lot of value on self learning and interest. I've definitely seen the number of new grad applicants and bootcamp grad applicants at least quadruple in the past few years. Most of these can make an Angular a…

That's something I have noticed too. In the 90s most people I worked with were genuinely interested in the work and often came from very eclectic backgrounds. Almost nobody had a CS degree. Now it seems a lot of people go into programming because it pays well and looks like a good career but they don't really care for tech. I definitely found the industry more fun in the 90s but that may just be the fact it's becomin…

I don't think someone necessarily has to live and breathe code to be good at their job. That kind of focus is hard to maintain forever. When I was new I was constantly reading programming books and now, like, I'm still interested, but other things are going on in my life that also need my attention, you know?

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#37

Post by zbentley »

emodendroket wrote: post #22
tensor wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is absolutely a skill difference between senior and junior. The problem is that junior developers today somehow think they deserve mid or senior level salaries despite not having the skills. Developers are being told not only that higher level skills like algorithms and big-oh don't matter, but that they are such special people that they can even do jobs completely outside of their specialty like design, manage…

Hey, man, if people want to pay me well and give me lofty titles I am not going to dissuade them. As developers I don't think that's our problem to worry about. Seeking out the most benefit for yourself is just common sense in the job market we live in and I'm not losing a lot of sleep over the prospect that I'm not as "expert" in my job as a lawyer is.

While I don't think you're a bad person for doing those things, can you see how this (repeated by enough people) produces the new-entrant-hostile hiring environment we currently have?

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#38

Post by cyberpanther »

emodendroket wrote: post #27
cyberpanther wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

totally agree. I would say a good 10-20% do have some kind of contact in the industry though and get a job that way.

Honestly, I think a lot of what you are paying for with the boot camp is the promise that their network and industry contacts will help you. Otherwise it's pretty much impossible (at least in my view) to justify those tuition rates.

If you look at long term value, the tuition is really nothing. At a good bootcamp even without any industry contacts you will probably have a job in 6 months. Sure your salary will be lower than a CS grad, but you'll also have way less debt.

But yes look at placement rates at any bootcamp before joining. If people are getting jobs then it's well worth it.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#39

Post by mooreds »

It is a tragedy of the commons scenario. Everyone wants senior devs, who were at one point junior devs.

No one wants to train junior devs. The OP points out why:

* cheaper to have juniorish work done overseas

* juniorish work is automated away

* juniors on a team slow it down (compared to a team of all seniors)

So everyone competes for the senior talent.

A more sophisticated long term analysis might look at the benefits to senior developers and the hiring pipeline of bringing junior folks in. Again, the OP:

* senior folks get the chance to mentor, exercising a different skillset

* senior folks learn more about the problem domain by having to explain it

I'd add:

* junior folks bring in new ideas/concepts

* some level of loyalty is inspired. If nothing else, a beneficial brand among other new grads.

* the company matures and has to think about career path and retention

* good junior developers can be more "bang for the buck" as they grow. they still need raises, but will be able to do more work per $ than a mid level person might (because of their familiarity with the tooling and the domain)

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#40

Post by mac01021 »

adjkant wrote: post #16
jarjoura wrote: post #7

Most junior level positions are being filled with the massive influx of new grads from really strong intern programs at most companies now. If you're in college now, make sure you get an internship at a company in your field. If it's too late for that, then you'll have to do a little extra work and probably work on a couple side projects and post them on GitHub. That first job will always be the hardest to get, so do…

This. If you're graduating without an internship or two, you're in trouble.

Define "trouble". I'm ten years into my career now, but I graduated with no internships and feel like I've done OK.
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