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Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

nytimes.com

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Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#61

Post by nwah1 »

morley wrote: post #49
nwah1 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree the costs are high. That is largely a result of the high cost of living. There's additional economically literate funding methods which account for that. For instance, when infrastructure is built, it causes surrounding land values and rents to rise. It is possible to use that rising value to pay for the infrastructure, via a special assessment. There is also an issue where the people with the worst infrastru…

I'm not sure you read the article in question. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-... The costs aren't high because of cost of living, they're high because of cushy agreements with workers unions and construction companies, among a myriad other things.

Interesting, thank you.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#62

Post by JumpCrisscross »

bunderbunder wrote: post #44
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “fair” answer is get on a train. There are plenty of affordable communities on the Metro North, LIRR and NJ Transit.

How practical is that for the people who are currently driving in NYC? In Chicago, the vast majority of people who live in the suburbs and work in the loop take Metra. But Chicago's transit system is so heavily hub-and-spoke that the public transit just isn't practical if you don't work near the hub, and plenty of people don't. For them, it's frequently a choice between an hour or so in traffic, and more like 2 hours…

> I can't really blame anyone for deciding that 4 hours total commuting is not an option

I know people who drive from their faraway place to a train station outside the city and then take the Metro-North into Grand Central Station. From street parking to bridges and tunnels, New York City massively subsidises drivers.

I'd strongly prefer we raise tolls and congestion charges and use the proceeds to modernize our subway system.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#63

Post by yipbub »

Simon_says wrote: post #31
baldfat wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only issue is when I had to run to Manhattan I jumped in my car and went either into a parking lot or just dropped something off. Still get charged for the Bridge Fees of $15!!! $15 to use the GWB and anything going to Long Island or NJ is ridiculous and Verrizano is $17 and that is the the highest cost for a bridge in the nation. GWB is a major interstate and you have to swing up to the Tapanzee or go further no…

Is that too high? Then kindly don't drive in Manhattan.

For clarity: perhaps emphasize the word drive.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#64

Post by rthomas6 »

jimmaswell wrote: post #13
liveoneggs wrote: post #8

a friend was once visiting me in manhattan and decided to drive. He came over on the george washington bridge ($15 toll), missed his turn to my block and ended up getting turned around and going over to brooklyn (tunnel, of course: $8.50 toll), realized he was in the wrong place and turned around ($8.50 back through the tunnel). This, of course, was after driving up from Virginia via I-95, which has its own $20+ wort…

I just recently learned about this. It's unbelievable. How can anyone defend a $15 toll? I'm glad I don't have any business in NYC.

They can defend it by having good enough public transportation to not need a car in Manhattan. Unless you're carrying something large/heavy, there's no reason to go to Manhattan via car. It's something we Americans aren't used to and don't think about, but basing cities around cars instead of people is a bad idea.

In NYC, it's often faster to take the subway instead of drive.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#65

Post by lotsofpulp »

lazerpants wrote: post #58
nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

They're both common in society. Instead of the school directly charging more money, increase property taxes, or don't allow apartments to be built. That describes most of the public schooling in America, and why a child's future is most dependent upon their zip code.

NYC is different in that the city government covers rich and poor people and can't legally separate the two so a different measure develops, such as entrance exams where kids whose parents are able to hire tutors perform better on. We can't have a hugely unequal society and expect certain bubbles in it to pretend as if those who have advantages aren't using them.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#66

Post by lazerpants »

yipbub wrote: post #59
lazerpants wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always surprised by the only-in-this-circumstance libertarian philosophy of people who support congestion pricing. I think if you took the exact same logic and applied it to say, schools, supporters would feel completely differently about it. Example: It's really hard to get your child into certain public schools in NYC. Why not start charging $3k a year per child (much less than private schools) at high demand s…

The report says "None of those fees should be charged, the task force said, until repairs are made to the public transit system." so it wouldn't be like they'd be "surge charging" a necessity like schools.

True. Going into a little bit more detail of what I mentioned though, all of the high demand schools I know of have other nearby schools that are in low demand. Typically, the high demand school is in a wealthy neighborhood (let's say Brooklyn Heights), and the low demand school is in a bordering poorer neighborhood (Vinegar Hill).

So, the city would not be surge charging for a necessity, just a preference for a high demand school. Likewise, most people would prefer to drive if they could, but the physical limitations of the system require that most people take public transport.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#67

Post by iraklism »

lclarkmichalek wrote: post #47

London has something similar, the congestion charge. Has helped somewhat, and def makes regular driving in central London a 'you did what?' thing. It's lifted on the weekend, which is nice if you want to pop to IKEA or whatever. I think they're planning on pushing something similar all the way out to the north circular, and maybe the M25 for heavily polluting traffic.

Worth noting that the CC in London operates for 15 years now. I’m sure there is a wealth of data that can be analysed, and I’m even more sure that there are a number of studies and papers that have explored its usefulness and positive/negative impact on traffic/economy/environment/public transportation.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#68

Post by turc1656 »

saas_co_de wrote: post #9
cujo wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think the best alternative to cut out the poor entirely?

My point is that charging both fees and taxes means that the poor are excluded, because they can't afford the fees, but they still have to pay part of the taxes.

All public goods are taxed even if they don't have associated fees. So, if we were to move everything to a fee-for-usage system, I don't think you'd like the result since the wealthy pay an extraordinarily outsized portion of funding for public goods and services (which they use far less than the average person). The poor would still be excluded because the new fee would be at least the existing tax+fee, plus some additional increased amount to account for the wealthier people who were paying an outsized portion through income tax previously. Now that rich person gets to pay the same $x as the poor person. The poor person is still priced out in your scenario.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#69

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

> In a key change from past efforts, drivers would not have to pay if they entered Manhattan by all but two of the city-owned East River bridges, which are now free to cross, as long as they bypassed the congestion zone.

The West side should get the same benefits.

They should also increase the motorcycle toll discount back to 20% like it was years ago.

Re: Driving a Car in Manhattan Could Cost $11 Under Congestion Plan

#70

Post by ben_jones »

nwah1 wrote: post #7

Congestion pricing is one of the most economically literate ways to improve traffic, and those funds can be used to improve infrastructure. It isn't so different from surge pricing in ridesharing apps. There is a narrowmindedness on the part of opponents of both congestion pricing and surge pricing, because they are ignoring the obvious point that if they weren't paying the fees they'd be paying in terms of time. Not…

While I agree in principle poor people are going to be hit by this the hardest and that's something that has to be taken into account in public policy.
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