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Microsoft Moves to End Secrecy in Sexual Harassment Claims

nytimes.com

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Re: Microsoft Moves to End Secrecy in Sexual Harassment Claims

#61

Post by ggg9990 »

wildmusings wrote: post #7
rectang wrote: post #2

Ending forced arbitration was number one on Susan Fowler's list of "Five Things Tech Companies Can Do Better": https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/5/20/five-things-tech... 1. End Forced Arbitration This is the single most important thing a company can do to prove to its employees that it is dedicated to acting ethically, legally, responsibly, and transparently. Microsoft's change of policy makes sense when you con…

Binding arbitration and confidentiality agreements are two totally different things, that seem to be getting conflated here. There is a defensible argument for not allowing mandatory binding arbitration for certain things. But eliminating the ability of parties to agree to a confidential settlement is a huge mistake. It will result in victims getting less money. An allegation of harassment, without further evidence,…

Less money for victims is a GOOD thing. One of Bill O'Reilly's victims got $32 million for a confidential settlement, which teed up the next victim as a near-certainty.

Re: Microsoft Moves to End Secrecy in Sexual Harassment Claims

#62

Post by ggg9990 »

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #54
geofft wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing about innocent-by-default is that false accusations are also a serious crime with serious penalties (for good reason), and if you believe that the accused is affirmatively innocent, you have to believe that the accused is guilty. The reason that courts, specifically, do not have this paradox is that "innocent" simply means "we do not have the evidence to justify using the extraordinary punishment powers res…

...if you believe that the accused is affirmatively innocent, you have to believe that the accused is guilty. This is not strictly or even practically true, but you acknowledge that later. When the defendant prevails in a court case, we don’t turn around and lock up the plaintiff. You go on to say: ...a world in which all who accuse people of sexual harassment are effectively guilty-until-proven-innocent in the court…

False accusation is a particular problem for sex crimes because the legality of the act depends on consent.

You can't explain away a dead body saying "he asked me to murder him." But you can explain away evidence of sexual intercourse by saying "it was consensual."

Re: Microsoft Moves to End Secrecy in Sexual Harassment Claims

#63

Post by ggg9990 »

skookumchuck wrote: post #57
rayiner wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how many countervailing stories are there of womens’ careers being destroyed because the wouldn’t go along with sexual advances from superiors?

I'm interested. Produce one that was on the scale of what happened to the Lacrosse players.

That's the problem with not only this issue but many others like environmental pollution -- crimes are very hard to detect when the victims are numerous, and the damage is non-public. Needless to say there are many women who have been murdered for rejecting sexual advances.

Re: Microsoft Moves to End Secrecy in Sexual Harassment Claims

#64

Post by wildmusings »

geofft wrote: post #44
dominotw wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telling some one a sex joke is a not a crime, killing someone is a crime. Edit: Sexual harassment, as such, is not a crime under state or federal law in the U.S. Murder is a Crime. Makes no sense to compare it to murder. apples oranges.

Creating a hostile work environment that constitutes discrimination on sex is absolutely, unquestionably, a federal crime, a violation of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (see Supreme Court cases Meritor Savings Bank v. Vinson , Ellison v. Brady , Oncale v. Sundowner Offshore Services , etc. etc. etc. - and Meritor and Oncale had no dissents, and Ellison only had one dissent from a justice who felt that the…

You are 100% wrong. Sexual harassment is EXCLUSIVELY a civil cause of action. It is NOT a crime, end of story. It's honestly baffling that you could have looked at any of those cases and not known you were looking at a civil case.

Re: Microsoft Moves to End Secrecy in Sexual Harassment Claims

#66

Post by solidsnack9000 »

ggg9990 wrote: post #62
solidsnack9000 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...if you believe that the accused is affirmatively innocent, you have to believe that the accused is guilty. This is not strictly or even practically true, but you acknowledge that later. When the defendant prevails in a court case, we don’t turn around and lock up the plaintiff. You go on to say: ...a world in which all who accuse people of sexual harassment are effectively guilty-until-proven-innocent in the court…

False accusation is a particular problem for sex crimes because the legality of the act depends on consent. You can't explain away a dead body saying "he asked me to murder him." But you can explain away evidence of sexual intercourse by saying "it was consensual."

In the absence of evidence that indicates non-consent — signs of a struggle, injuries, presence of date rape drugs — evidence of sexual intercourse doesn’t need to be explained. Actually, even in the presence of clear evidence of non-consent, evidence of sexual intercourse doesn’t need to be explained — it’s the evidence that creates the impression of an assault that needs to be explained.

It seems wrong to take evidence of sexual intercourse alone, and a statement by a plaintiff claiming that the sexual intercourse was non-consensual, as a basis for a conviction. That amounts to just deciding to believe one side and not the other. If that what’s happening, why look for any evidence at all?

Re: Microsoft Moves to End Secrecy in Sexual Harassment Claims

#67

Post by evgen »

skookumchuck wrote: post #57
rayiner wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how many countervailing stories are there of womens’ careers being destroyed because the wouldn’t go along with sexual advances from superiors?

I'm interested. Produce one that was on the scale of what happened to the Lacrosse players.

Harvey Weinstein. More people suffered and to a greater extent, more money involved. If you didn't have the ability to Google up the Duke case you could not name a single person involved, but would have no problem naming some of Harvey's victims.

Re: Microsoft Moves to End Secrecy in Sexual Harassment Claims

#68

Post by PastaMonster »

What is the real reason Microsoft is doing this?

Companies don't do anything just because it's the right thing to do. Putting out a fire? Trying to kill a lawsuit? Perhaps the good ol' economical incentive? What have made Microsoft to lift a finger? And which finger?

Re: Microsoft Moves to End Secrecy in Sexual Harassment Claims

#69

Post by leereeves »

geofft wrote: post #42
jeffdavis wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Courts do have stricter standards for admission of evidence and verdicts. But the basic innocent-by-default is a general principle that should apply pretty much everywhere. And there should be consistency and standards in media reporting of allegations, and for HR decisions.

The thing about innocent-by-default is that false accusations are also a serious crime with serious penalties (for good reason), and if you believe that the accused is affirmatively innocent, you have to believe that the accused is guilty. The reason that courts, specifically, do not have this paradox is that "innocent" simply means "we do not have the evidence to justify using the extraordinary punishment powers res…

> false accusations are also a serious crime with serious penalties

False accusations of sexual assault or harassment rarely result in any penalties at all (even when proven false by strong evidence), and there's immense resistance to imposing such penalties for fear of discouraging legitimate accusations.

Re: Microsoft Moves to End Secrecy in Sexual Harassment Claims

#70

Post by PastaMonster »

greglindahl wrote: post #32
dominotw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yea but you are comparing something thats considered crime by federal law to something that isn't. Commiting a crime is illegal, sure. I don't understand what you were implying then.

This discussion is about allegations which range from rape down to "acting creepy." Some of these are crimes. Even if we aren't initially talking about a crime, I would find it unjust if a billionaire quietly paid off 100 victims of sexual harassment, and then committed an assault. "Who could have predicted this?!?!"

Here's a thought, define these, be specific, don't be vague: Sexual harassment, creepy, weird, offensive, hostile, racist, rape, consensual, troll, etc.

All this nonsense is subjective. I mean to some people, being hostile and offensive is to have a differing opinion.

For how long is this nonsense to continue? People are too afraid and walking on egg shells to have a normal human conversation. Now that IS a hostile work environment!

For how long are we going to allow people to run around causing havoc and social disorder?

Just the other day some people talked about a person getting accused of sexual harassment because he wore a t-shirt with a big X on it. The bandwagon effect caused yet another person to claim the t-shirt were insinuating racism because of the t-shirts colors. For crying out loud! Think the victim got reprimanded, perhaps fired. Can't remember, I was quite drunk at the time. Do remember it didn't end well though.

This sort of bullshit is getting worse and more common. Companies don't want to deal with the drama so they just fires the victim of these accusations and publish a press release of which they pat themselves on the back for what they did.

You dislike someone? Accuse them of rape or sexual harassment, let the bandwagon effect do the rest. The drama queens, attentions whores, liars, trolls and such make the same accusation or similar and for some reason when several people claim the same or similar means the person is guilty. Argumentum ad populum.

This just pisses me off. What happened to "whoever makes a claim carries the burden of proof regardless of positive or negative content in the claim." Where's the justice?

This is like the witch accusations a few decades ago. "Aww. She didn't float, she drowned, guess she wasn't a witch. Oh well, mistakes happen". "She swore revenge and cursed us while she burned to death. It can only mean one thing: she was a witch!".

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