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Venezuela’s Behind on Its Debt and Facing Two Huge Bond Payments

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Re: Venezuela’s Behind on Its Debt and Facing Two Huge Bond Payments

#61

Post by aaron-lebo »

abalone wrote: post #58
aaron-lebo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're really citing results from an authoritarian regime known for scrubbing numbers and propaganda as evidence of popular support?

No, there is good reason to believe the election was fair. The mainstream U.S. reporting on this is extremely biased; the U.S. has a long history of deeply anti-democractic attitudes towards Latin America (since at least the Monroe Doctrine). Excellent and detailed reporting here:[1] "...key opposition candidates in the governor's races in Venezuela are gradually accepting the results as legitimate, except for one co…

Chavez was a military man who established a dictatorship, and his successor continues. You are kidding yourself if you really think this has anything to do with big bad guy US. Not all problems derive from the US.

Re: Venezuela’s Behind on Its Debt and Facing Two Huge Bond Payments

#62

Post by aaron-lebo »

abalone wrote: post #59
aaron-lebo wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting a non authoritarian regine in place would be progress in almost every way. The Monroe Doctrine precedes 1904. It's interesting that the Venezuelans have been in favor of it at times: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_crisis_of_1895

It is clear what Venezuelans are in favor of; they just had an election. If you support undermining the election for their own good... who is the authoritarian here?

If you really believe what you are saying, you are great prey for authoritarians, so watch out and take care.

Re: Venezuela’s Behind on Its Debt and Facing Two Huge Bond Payments

#63

Post by asf4232 »

whatok wrote: post #54
asf4232 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ability of external powers is a point I bring up when people go on about Venezuela being a failed socialist state. With the stroke of their pens, other nations have limited what Venezuela can achieve on its own, and are forced to play the game as usual. How anyone can say it a symbol of failed socialism states when you're being squeezed by international super powers into a corner with no real access, I have no id…

Venezuela was well on its way to failure well before the US introduced any sanctions.

RECENT sanctions.

The US and other governments have been meddling in SA for decades.

Something that CANNOT be tolerated when it comes to the US and its most recent election, right?

Re: Venezuela’s Behind on Its Debt and Facing Two Huge Bond Payments

#64

Post by abalone »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #62
abalone wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is clear what Venezuelans are in favor of; they just had an election. If you support undermining the election for their own good... who is the authoritarian here?

If you really believe what you are saying, you are great prey for authoritarians, so watch out and take care.

Either you believe the election was unfair or you believe it was fair but we, the U.S., have the right to undermine it. The latter is trivially an authoritarian, anti-democratic stance, although unfortunately par for course in U.S. - Latin American affairs.

If you think it was unfair, you're going to have to cite some evidence. I've cited independent observers who noted the very high transparency of Venezuelan elections, to which you really had no response.[1]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15536102

Re: Venezuela’s Behind on Its Debt and Facing Two Huge Bond Payments

#65

Post by smnrchrds »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #61
abalone wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there is good reason to believe the election was fair. The mainstream U.S. reporting on this is extremely biased; the U.S. has a long history of deeply anti-democractic attitudes towards Latin America (since at least the Monroe Doctrine). Excellent and detailed reporting here:[1] "...key opposition candidates in the governor's races in Venezuela are gradually accepting the results as legitimate, except for one co…

Chavez was a military man who established a dictatorship, and his successor continues. You are kidding yourself if you really think this has anything to do with big bad guy US. Not all problems derive from the US.

If you consider Chavez's presidency as dictatorship, you are very mistaken. He was a populist, but never a dictator. I know Vox is not always the best source of news, but this article is spot on:

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/world/2017/9/19/16189742/ve...

Re: Venezuela’s Behind on Its Debt and Facing Two Huge Bond Payments

#66

Post by aaron-lebo »

smnrchrds wrote: post #65
aaron-lebo wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chavez was a military man who established a dictatorship, and his successor continues. You are kidding yourself if you really think this has anything to do with big bad guy US. Not all problems derive from the US.

If you consider Chavez's presidency as dictatorship, you are very mistaken. He was a populist, but never a dictator. I know Vox is not always the best source of news, but this article is spot on: https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/world/2017/9/19/16189742/ve...

This is technically true, but while in office, Chavez eliminated most of the institutions necessary for a healthy democracy (eg independent judiciary). If he was not technically a dictator, he acted like one, and his successor is filling the role he made possible.

Re: Venezuela’s Behind on Its Debt and Facing Two Huge Bond Payments

#67

Post by whatok »

asf4232 wrote: post #63
whatok wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Venezuela was well on its way to failure well before the US introduced any sanctions.

RECENT sanctions. The US and other governments have been meddling in SA for decades. Something that CANNOT be tolerated when it comes to the US and its most recent election, right?

Not sure why you're bringing up election meddling when both Chavez and Maduro were elected. What was this meddling supposed to accomplish?

Re: Venezuela’s Behind on Its Debt and Facing Two Huge Bond Payments

#68

Post by baursak »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #47
abalone wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

54% of the population supported the Maduro government in the election.[1] If you think Trump is taking the "correct action," you're against democracy at this point. [1] https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/venezuela-election-resu...

You're really citing results from an authoritarian regime known for scrubbing numbers and propaganda as evidence of popular support?

As I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I recommend watching Abby Martin's on the ground reporting in Venezuela to get a full picture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUYWrPiUeWY (this particular episode is one of many examples)

Re: Venezuela’s Behind on Its Debt and Facing Two Huge Bond Payments

#69

Post by Bartweiss »

ProAm wrote: post #39
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one becomes immediately suspicious of the US intent in latin america These restrictions are forcing an inevitable outcome sooner. Venezuela's debt load is unsustainable for reasons entirely of Chavez and Maduro's doing (as well as the people who elected them in elections that were, until fairly recently, fair and free [1]). Suspicion is good. Using baseless suspicion to deflect attention from a well-based problem i…

> one becomes immediately suspicious of the US intent. I suggest your read or watch this and you'll be immediately less suspicious [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit...

In this case, though, the point is that it doesn't actually matter.

Maybe the Washington Consensus really is a racket designed to turn underdeveloped nations into 1%-favoring client states. (Frankly, the least convincing part of Perkins is the claim that this is a formal conspiracy instead of a convenient result of non-conspiracy functioning.)

Even if that's true, refusing to deal with PDVSA is far from unreasonable on a practical and moral level. Maduro is running an unsustainable, patronage-based con, to the detriment of his country. Freezing his ability to do that via international finance is a pretty reasonable move, so it doesn't actually tell us anything about the presence or absence of a conspiracy.

Re: Venezuela’s Behind on Its Debt and Facing Two Huge Bond Payments

#70

Post by Bartweiss »

abalone wrote: post #58
aaron-lebo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're really citing results from an authoritarian regime known for scrubbing numbers and propaganda as evidence of popular support?

No, there is good reason to believe the election was fair. The mainstream U.S. reporting on this is extremely biased; the U.S. has a long history of deeply anti-democractic attitudes towards Latin America (since at least the Monroe Doctrine). Excellent and detailed reporting here:[1] "...key opposition candidates in the governor's races in Venezuela are gradually accepting the results as legitimate, except for one co…

My go-to source on this has actually been Jacobin - first because socialist regimes abroad are their wheelhouse, and second because they're particularly incentivized to give a positive view of Venezuela. They gave Chavez consistent support well past 2002, which makes me think they're not subject to the criticism you've offered here.

And yet... Well, these days their reporting looks like:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/07/venezuela-maduro-helicopt...

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/07/venezuela-elections-chave...

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/05/venezuela-crisis-maduro-o...

You don't have to be a capitalist imperialist to recognize that this particular government has abandoned legitimacy and the interests of the people.

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