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Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

nature.com

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Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#61

Post by CuriouslyC »

delegate wrote: post #50
trgv wrote: post #10

Assuming that psilocybin is effective at treating depression, I find myself wondering whether actual conscious experience (that is, being high) is an essential part of its effectiveness or not. To put this another way, imagine someone takes whatever dose of psilocybin and then is rendered unconsciousness until the perceptual effects wear off. Will there be any difference in its effectiveness as a treatment for depres…

Being conscious during the trip is an essential part of the healing process. In fact, healing comes from the realization of what consciousness really is, that death is not the end, how my little self is just a stubborn part of a larger infinite consciousness that is the Universe thinking itself into existence, etc. You 'remember' what you really are and that's liberating. One theory that I subscribe to is that the dr…

Psychedelics absolutely increase neuroplasticity, via triggering the release of BDNF. They are also extremely potent anti-inflammatories.

Regarding the value of the trip itself, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. It always makes me chuckle when scientists talk about trying to isolate the antidepressant effect from the psychedelic nature of the experience. That is a sure sign that the people studying the compound lack significant first-hand experience with it.

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#62

Post by gwern »

trgv wrote: post #10

Assuming that psilocybin is effective at treating depression, I find myself wondering whether actual conscious experience (that is, being high) is an essential part of its effectiveness or not. To put this another way, imagine someone takes whatever dose of psilocybin and then is rendered unconsciousness until the perceptual effects wear off. Will there be any difference in its effectiveness as a treatment for depres…

I believe the ketamine anti-depressant experiments use a different anesthetic to put subjects under in order to split the trip experience from the lower-level chemical effects, and still find benefits. If the trip itself is not necessary for ketamine, that makes it more plausible that it's not necessary for psilocybin etc.

(Of course, this doesn't rule out the possibility that much of the benefit is coming from after the trip during regular life based on experiencing regular life with 'reset' neurons under the Carhart-Harris/Nutt interpretation.)

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#63

Post by amigoingtodie »

trgv wrote: post #10

Assuming that psilocybin is effective at treating depression, I find myself wondering whether actual conscious experience (that is, being high) is an essential part of its effectiveness or not. To put this another way, imagine someone takes whatever dose of psilocybin and then is rendered unconsciousness until the perceptual effects wear off. Will there be any difference in its effectiveness as a treatment for depres…

The introspection is crucial.

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#64

Post by amigoingtodie »

gwern wrote: post #62
trgv wrote: post #10

Assuming that psilocybin is effective at treating depression, I find myself wondering whether actual conscious experience (that is, being high) is an essential part of its effectiveness or not. To put this another way, imagine someone takes whatever dose of psilocybin and then is rendered unconsciousness until the perceptual effects wear off. Will there be any difference in its effectiveness as a treatment for depres…

I believe the ketamine anti-depressant experiments use a different anesthetic to put subjects under in order to split the trip experience from the lower-level chemical effects, and still find benefits. If the trip itself is not necessary for ketamine, that makes it more plausible that it's not necessary for psilocybin etc. (Of course, this doesn't rule out the possibility that much of the benefit is coming from after…

Ketamine is used as a disassociative, though.

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#65

Post by amigoingtodie »

DigitalJack wrote: post #18
evincarofautumn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would assume so, that it’d be akin to a strong one-shot antidepressant. Psilocybin is quickly metabolised to psilocin, which binds to serotonin receptors. It might be more of a risk for a bad trip, though, unless you have good dream control. Also, you’d definitely need to be rendered unconscious, haha—I can’t imagine trying to sleep naturally on mushrooms, although when I take them I always have the most beautifull…

Propofol would do the trick (in a clinical setting).

Michael Jackson disagrees.

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#66

Post by noahdesu »

beagle3 wrote: post #51

Is Psilocybin and/or Ayahuasaca and/or any other DMT source legal anywhere in the world? I would expect at least _some_ places make it legal, possibly have hundreds/thousands of years of experience that might be interesting to read alongside modern studies.

I believe that Psilocybin is legal in Jamaica, see https://www.mycomeditations.com/. Since it would seem that large numbers of people visit South America to attend Ayahuasaca retreats, one may assume it is legal there. And some religious exemptions exist for both Ayahuasaca and Peyote in the U.S., but even this may be a bit fuzzy as this certainly isn't widely advertised. One may also purchase legally, in all but a few U.S. states, Psilocybin spores; they become illegal once grown.

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#67

Post by jonnycomputer »

trgv wrote: post #10

Assuming that psilocybin is effective at treating depression, I find myself wondering whether actual conscious experience (that is, being high) is an essential part of its effectiveness or not. To put this another way, imagine someone takes whatever dose of psilocybin and then is rendered unconsciousness until the perceptual effects wear off. Will there be any difference in its effectiveness as a treatment for depres…

well, in these studies, we are talking about really low doses. so no, "trip"

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#68

Post by jonnycomputer »

debarshri wrote: post #46

My girlfriend has treatment resistant depression. Most of her life doctors prescribed SSRI based drugs which didn't really work. A lot of money was also spent on psychiatrist for CBT. Based on a youtube videos and blogpost, read about 5HTP. I think 5htp supplements really works in cases where depression is genetic or the depression exists since childhood, where the cause of depression is not known. You can actually s…

Depression is such a broad spectrum disorder (or put another way, a highly variable cluster of symptoms), that its hard to generalize in any way.

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#69

Post by nugga »

ComputerGuru wrote: post #4

Before self-medicating based on this combined with a self-diagnosis, consider that LSD and psilocybin have a nasty tendency of triggering latent psychological conditions if not taken in the appropriate dosage and in a controlled environment. [ref: http://www.nationaldrugstrategy.gov.au/internet/drugstrategy... ]

One theory is that combined with shitty set & setting the people who went haywire after using psychedelics had some seriously strong energies/stuff unlocked from their subconscious that they weren't yet prepared to process. There's some indication that great stress can be a trigger for psychiatric illnessess as well.

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#70

Post by adrice727 »

jonnycomputer wrote: post #67
trgv wrote: post #10

Assuming that psilocybin is effective at treating depression, I find myself wondering whether actual conscious experience (that is, being high) is an essential part of its effectiveness or not. To put this another way, imagine someone takes whatever dose of psilocybin and then is rendered unconsciousness until the perceptual effects wear off. Will there be any difference in its effectiveness as a treatment for depres…

well, in these studies, we are talking about really low doses. so no, "trip"

  The present study focused on changes in brain function before versus after psilocybin in 
  patients with treatment-resistant depression who received two doses of the drug 
  (10 mg followed by 25 mg, one-week apart) as part of an open-label clinical trial.
25mg of pure psilocybin, the equivalent of 3.3 - 5 grams of dried mushrooms (depending on strength), is certainly enough for a trip.
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