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EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

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Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#61

Post by azernik »

derefr wrote: post #29

Interesting question to me: is any country offering easy-to-attain diplomatic-courier status, such that I could (legitimately) label my laptop bag as a diplomatic pouch to protect it from search? (Yes, it's more complex than this; you'd have to be able to upload a manifest of what's in the bag and what it weighs to some service of that country's government, and then the country's embassy here would forward the manife…

No. This would be in direct contravention of the Vienna Protocols [1] that define a diplomatic pouch and its protections. You are not allowed to stuff your personal shit in a diplomatic courier pouch, and any country openly and intentionally allowing the abuse of the Vienna Protocols for these purposes would be in very hot water internationally. Like, international-incident, embassies-expelled hot water.

[1] Article 27 Section 4: "The packages constituting the diplomatic bag must bear visible external marks of their character and may contain only diplomatic documents or articles intended for official use."

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#62

Post by bitwize »

microcolonel wrote: post #5
aey wrote: post #4

Donate to the eff. They will send you an awesome hoodie.

I'm glad they picked up this approach, I think they got it from the NRA. NRA's been doing donor merchandise and services quite well for a long time, they even have a wine delivery service. I encourage anyone operating a non-profit to consider setting up programmes like this; you'll get more visibility (from people virtue-signalling their donation), and it will attract new revenue from sociopaths.

And I think the NRA got it from PBS, who have been offering tote bags, Elmo dolls, and the like in exchange fir pledges for decades.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#63

Post by derefr »

azernik wrote: post #61
derefr wrote: post #29

Interesting question to me: is any country offering easy-to-attain diplomatic-courier status, such that I could (legitimately) label my laptop bag as a diplomatic pouch to protect it from search? (Yes, it's more complex than this; you'd have to be able to upload a manifest of what's in the bag and what it weighs to some service of that country's government, and then the country's embassy here would forward the manife…

No. This would be in direct contravention of the Vienna Protocols [1] that define a diplomatic pouch and its protections. You are not allowed to stuff your personal shit in a diplomatic courier pouch, and any country openly and intentionally allowing the abuse of the Vienna Protocols for these purposes would be in very hot water internationally. Like, international-incident, embassies-expelled hot water. [1] Article…

It's still not clear to me that e.g. the Queen of England couldn't travel around with her shopping list in a diplomatic pouch. A country's government gets to decide for itself what is and isn't for its "official use", no? So if a country says your laptop contains materials intended for their official use, then it does. It's just a matter of you being important enough for them to be willing to make that claim on your behalf.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#64

Post by derefr »

ceejayoz wrote: post #37
derefr wrote: post #29

Interesting question to me: is any country offering easy-to-attain diplomatic-courier status, such that I could (legitimately) label my laptop bag as a diplomatic pouch to protect it from search? (Yes, it's more complex than this; you'd have to be able to upload a manifest of what's in the bag and what it weighs to some service of that country's government, and then the country's embassy here would forward the manife…

It'd have to be on a very small scale. Countries get to limit the number of staff a foreign embassy is allowed to bring in, and they can kick folks out of the country.

Ah, note, I said "diplomatic courier", not "diplomat." A diplomatic pouch can actually be escorted by anyone, or even unescorted, as long as it has a sealed manifest affixed. Indeed, the person escorting the pouch doesn't even have to be a citizen of either the source country or the mission/embassy. This proviso allows people to be "deputized" to deliver a diplomatic pouch; allows diplomatic pouches to be handed off for delivery and still keep their protections; allows diplomatic pouches to be recovered from a war-zone and resume delivery; etc.

Fun fact: for air travel, unescorted diplomatic pouches are taken into the care of the captain, and are kept in the cockpit.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#65

Post by dawnerd »

iamatworknow wrote: post #46
ironix wrote: post #38

I'm going on a trip to Canada within the next month, from the US, as a US citizen. I want to be let into Canada without issue, so am taking a burner smartphone connected to a non-critical gmail account that is plausibly-maybe my "real" personal one. But not really. The maximum threat to me is detention, or more likely, refused entry. If I am asked to unlock the device, I will. Crossing back into the US, I am less con…

>Does anyone else have any tips/tricks/ideas here? The trick is to not worry about it so much. In fact, I'd say that worrying and looking nervous would make it more likely that you would be searched. I live on the US/Canadian border (on the US side) and go over probably 2 or 3 times per month. I regularly drive from New York state to Ottawa (going through Canadian customs), then fly into the US (through US customs) a…

Going into Canada as a US citizen is usually super easy anyways. Last few times I've been across it was maybe two questions, that's it.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#66

Post by Iv »

ironix wrote: post #38

I'm going on a trip to Canada within the next month, from the US, as a US citizen. I want to be let into Canada without issue, so am taking a burner smartphone connected to a non-critical gmail account that is plausibly-maybe my "real" personal one. But not really. The maximum threat to me is detention, or more likely, refused entry. If I am asked to unlock the device, I will. Crossing back into the US, I am less con…

My solution has been to not go to the US, but that is not always doable.

An interesting solution is to give something else to the border to worry about. Something perfectly legal but that would focus their attention. Like a perfectly registered and legally transported gun. Or some flour in plastic bags. Or a bottle of whiskey.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#67

Post by crooked-v »

derefr wrote: post #63
azernik wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. This would be in direct contravention of the Vienna Protocols [1] that define a diplomatic pouch and its protections. You are not allowed to stuff your personal shit in a diplomatic courier pouch, and any country openly and intentionally allowing the abuse of the Vienna Protocols for these purposes would be in very hot water internationally. Like, international-incident, embassies-expelled hot water. [1] Article…

It's still not clear to me that e.g. the Queen of England couldn't travel around with her shopping list in a diplomatic pouch. A country's government gets to decide for itself what is and isn't for its "official use", no? So if a country says your laptop contains materials intended for their official use, then it does . It's just a matter of you being important enough for them to be willing to make that claim on your…

The difference is that nearly everything the Queen of England does is in some way important to the UK, even if it's just on the level of keeping crown operations (which bring in substantial funds to the state) running smoothly.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#68

Post by tbrownaw »

djrogers wrote: post #56
greymeister wrote: post #55

The US extends the border-search exception to anywhere within 100 miles of an airport with international fights, meaning something like 60% of the US lives within a "border zone" as most international airports are close to dense population centers.

This is tangential, and I'm sure you didn't mean to, but you've come close to implying that a CBP agent can stop, search, and detain anyone within 100 miles of an International airport. That's not the case, it would have to be someone who actually crossed the border in to the USA. That said, and I can' believe I have to make this disclaimer as it feels about as obvious as saying I'm against torturing kittens, but I a…

it would have to be someone who actually crossed the border

... And if they want to detain you, who gets to decide whether that happened?

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#69

Post by petecox »

microcolonel wrote: post #19
toomuchtodo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and it will attract new revenue from sociopaths. Can't I just like a hoodie?

Heheh, fair enough. But I figure if the hoodie is the deciding factor for whether or not to donate (or how much), then you're just making a purchase.

Purchases are great. e.g. my Clayoquot Sound t-shirt from 2013 which is a souvenir with an indigenous rights theme from the other side of the world.

A mere cash donation to a petition-wielding activist would not have had the same resonance. At least several years later I still have a cool t-shirt.

Re: EFF, ACLU Sue Over Warrantless Phone, Laptop Searches at U.S. Border

#70

Post by wnoise »

meri_dian wrote: post #12
__david__ wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's presumably to prevent you from importing physical contraband into the country. Checking your internet connected device for contraband makes zero sense.

Contraband can be both physical and digital. If the government can conduct searches for physical contraband then searches for digital contraband in certain circumstances like border crossings seems reasonable.

The idea of digital contraband is anathema to a free society.
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