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Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

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Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#61

Post by yladiz »

AstralStorm wrote: post #59
falsedan wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would pay more for a technology that saves my finger Same, and I'm horrified to consider that professional tradesmen whose livelihood depends on their fine muscle control would choose not to pay more for a tool like this. Part of it is the mindset of "I'm not an idiot, I'd never accidentally position my hand anywhere near the blade"; but wood is a natural product with variations, and hitting an unexpected dense s…

You know why heavy gloves are used? Work clothing? Why there are safety rules and mandatory training? Why there are emergency stops? See, there are other ways to provide safety in this situation. And you cannot make anything really idiot proof. World will find a better idiot. This automated solution has a major drawback when sawing through anything too capacitive, wet wood, wood with nails etc. The company pushing th…

Isn't sawing through wood with nails really dangerous?

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#62

Post by AstralStorm »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #55
analog31 wrote: post #16

I own and use a tablesaw for home maintenance, and occasionally building utilitarian furniture, loudspeaker boxes (musician here), etc. My saw is an ancient Sears Roebuck that a buddy found at a garage sale. I'm aware of the SawStop technology, but haven't felt motivated to buy a brand new saw. The deal for me is simply that I don't have enough use for a saw, to justify buying a new one. I wouldn't recommend this app…

Tip buy a CNC router and throw the table saw out. Along with a bunch of other tools.

If you use it once in a blue moon, rental is smarter.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#63

Post by AstralStorm »

yladiz wrote: post #61
AstralStorm wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know why heavy gloves are used? Work clothing? Why there are safety rules and mandatory training? Why there are emergency stops? See, there are other ways to provide safety in this situation. And you cannot make anything really idiot proof. World will find a better idiot. This automated solution has a major drawback when sawing through anything too capacitive, wet wood, wood with nails etc. The company pushing th…

Isn't sawing through wood with nails really dangerous?

Yes, but sometimes necessary if you cannot extract the nail. It is mostly risking damage to equipment.

(Oh, forgot safety glasses.)

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#64

Post by AstralStorm »

DigitalJack wrote: post #11
sumoboy wrote: post #8

If big companies won't adopt it, startup a company and build a better saw and people will buy it. Table saws are dangerous, I remember in high school having a piece of wood splinter and fly past my head hitting the ceiling. People don't seem to have problems buying safety with cars, I see it as just an industry full of cheap ass power tools that constantly need replacing. I'd buy such a saw just so when my dumb ass n…

The sawstop guy did just that. Power tools are an area where brand matters more than normal.

So why did he patent it instead of releasing the relatively trivial invention into public domain?

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#65

Post by AstralStorm »

joosters wrote: post #44
bluejekyll wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for putting that into better light. So it's SawStop that is asking for too high a license, they aren't getting bites at that price point, and now trying to get legislation to force other companies to pony up. Now I get the greed aspect, should have been more obvious. I was thinking in terms of component cost and not licensing cost, how naive of me... Though in this case, at least they did create something nove…

I don't see it as being greedy. If you invent something clever, and we have a whole patent infrastructure for protecting inventors, why wouldn't you want to get paid for people using your inventions? No-one is seriously claiming that these patents are bad, or trivial, or obvious. The patents exist, they are available for companies to license, it's just that the competitors don't want to pay for it.

They are also prevented from inventing their own similar solutions due to prior art and broad patent.

The solution in SawStop qualifies as super obvious to a person not even well versed in art. As such it should not be patentable. However making a patent invalid in the US is extremely hard.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#66

Post by AstralStorm »

joosters wrote: post #43
nippples wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off the top of my head, I can think that the saw getting false positives or being incapable of cutting anything conductive, which may be my precise goal as a tool user, as dealbreakers on this feature. Nothing to do with greed.

Luckily, the creators of this technology also thought of these cases and provide ways to pre-test the safety check (e.g. damp wood) or to override it on specific cuts.

Good. So why not override it by disabling it completely?

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#67

Post by analog31 »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #55
analog31 wrote: post #16

I own and use a tablesaw for home maintenance, and occasionally building utilitarian furniture, loudspeaker boxes (musician here), etc. My saw is an ancient Sears Roebuck that a buddy found at a garage sale. I'm aware of the SawStop technology, but haven't felt motivated to buy a brand new saw. The deal for me is simply that I don't have enough use for a saw, to justify buying a new one. I wouldn't recommend this app…

Tip buy a CNC router and throw the table saw out. Along with a bunch of other tools.

That's certainly an interesting thought. For now, I'm in maintenance mode, so my most important tools are the ones that I can throw in a bucket and carry to the point of use. And, stuff that's not related to woodworking at all: Repairing appliances and messing around with old bikes.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#68

Post by AstralStorm »

WalterBright wrote: post #34
pfranz wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you'd only lose your blade and cartridge if you would have otherwise cut yourself...so it sounds like a good trade. Yes, it does get triggered if you have a stray nail in your wood (bad idea) or if the wood is too wet. But from the little experience I have, it'd only be triggered by wood that's wetter than you'd want to cut in the first place. SawStop is used at our community woodshop. I've seen it go off (some…

If the blade had slowed down substantially before it was set off, the potential for damage would be greatly reduced.

Oh and why not just instead use a clutch to disconnect the drive instead? There is one already I bet. Without motive force the blade stops in your hand without explosions. It has low mass so low momentum. (This won't work for massive blades but neither will exploding them. You will need an active brake.)

However the patent is on the dumb detector and is overly wide.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#69

Post by sersi »

mdekkers wrote: post #53

"None of the funds appropriated by this Act may be used to finalize any rule by the Consumer Product Safety Commission relating to blade-contact injuries on table saws," the rider on the budget bill reads. What the actual fuck.

Exactly my reaction. That's corruption.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#70

Post by falsedan »

AstralStorm wrote: post #59
falsedan wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would pay more for a technology that saves my finger Same, and I'm horrified to consider that professional tradesmen whose livelihood depends on their fine muscle control would choose not to pay more for a tool like this. Part of it is the mindset of "I'm not an idiot, I'd never accidentally position my hand anywhere near the blade"; but wood is a natural product with variations, and hitting an unexpected dense s…

You know why heavy gloves are used? Work clothing? Why there are safety rules and mandatory training? Why there are emergency stops? See, there are other ways to provide safety in this situation. And you cannot make anything really idiot proof. World will find a better idiot. This automated solution has a major drawback when sawing through anything too capacitive, wet wood, wood with nails etc. The company pushing th…

> The company pushing the legislation has a major agenda that is not safety - patent licensing.

I'm not convinced this is reason enough to argue against it; rather, it's reason to demand that whatever regulation is proposed doesn't mandate the technology used, or to fix the licensing fee at a reasonable amount.

> You know why [… other safety precautions for woodworking …]

I don't find this argument very compelling. By analogy, you could argue against airbags in cars, since people wear seat belts, have licensing + supervised training, brakes, etc. All of those things are human-dependent, and thus may not be used appropriately in all situations.

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