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Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

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Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#51

Post by yladiz »

randyrand wrote: post #25

Ya, no. Besides the horrendous patent issue (say goodbye to market competition), this will double the price of table saws. No thanks. Consumer protection laws are not about making obvious choices for me. Its supposed to protect me from the unknown unknowns - things that the average consumer would not know is dangerous. Everyone has heard about these safer saws for over a decade now. Everyone knows saws are dangerous.…

Everyone isn't quite accurate; do they sell and advertise saws with this at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. where most people buy their power tools? I also think that thinking this will remove consumer choice is inaccurate as well, because if this was mandatory it's not like current saw manufacturers would simply stop selling saws. My understanding is this product doesn't really change much over time, and while there might be some new features added it's essentially the same product that was created years ago. I think the patent issue is a problem but if that was removed this would be a no brainer to add.

Also, you're absolutely wrong that this won't make saws safer. This will prevent people from sawing their fingers off in the off chance a finger enters the blade. That absolutely makes it safer and its disingenuous to argue otherwise.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#52

Post by GauntletWizard »

joosters wrote: post #42
randyrand wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they are patenting capacitive sensing in the context of detecting a finger? you know, like a touchscreen? Wow. The USPO fucking sucks. For the record, I don't even know how the sensing actually works in the saws. I'm just guessing because its fricken OBVIOUS.

So many things seem obvious after they are explained. Fact is, no-one had built this kind of thing before sawstop. If it were so obvious, how come only one company did it?

Because they got a patent right as the technology became feasible.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#54

Post by falsedan »

yladiz wrote: post #50

I remember seeing this either on Science or Discovery channel when I was younger, talking about great inventions. I remember thinking it was a good idea, but forgot about it until last week when I saw an article pop up about the patent issue but that the FTC is thinking about contemplating making it mandatory. I think it should absolutely be mandatory, but I hope that the FTC can deal with the patent issue and let co…

> I would pay more for a technology that saves my finger

Same, and I'm horrified to consider that professional tradesmen whose livelihood depends on their fine muscle control would choose not to pay more for a tool like this. Part of it is the mindset of "I'm not an idiot, I'd never accidentally position my hand anywhere near the blade"; but wood is a natural product with variations, and hitting an unexpected dense section might cause the piece to kick back. Then you might move rapidly to avoid it, and trip & fall onto the blade, or stumble & reflexively put out a hand…

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#55

Post by Gibbon1 »

analog31 wrote: post #16

I own and use a tablesaw for home maintenance, and occasionally building utilitarian furniture, loudspeaker boxes (musician here), etc. My saw is an ancient Sears Roebuck that a buddy found at a garage sale. I'm aware of the SawStop technology, but haven't felt motivated to buy a brand new saw. The deal for me is simply that I don't have enough use for a saw, to justify buying a new one. I wouldn't recommend this app…

Tip buy a CNC router and throw the table saw out. Along with a bunch of other tools.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#56

Post by joosters »

GauntletWizard wrote: post #52
joosters wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many things seem obvious after they are explained. Fact is, no-one had built this kind of thing before sawstop. If it were so obvious, how come only one company did it?

Because they got a patent right as the technology became feasible.

Really? Which bits of the technology were infeasible prior to this?

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#57

Post by rasz »

joosters wrote: post #42
randyrand wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they are patenting capacitive sensing in the context of detecting a finger? you know, like a touchscreen? Wow. The USPO fucking sucks. For the record, I don't even know how the sensing actually works in the saws. I'm just guessing because its fricken OBVIOUS.

So many things seem obvious after they are explained. Fact is, no-one had built this kind of thing before sawstop. If it were so obvious, how come only one company did it?

>So many things seem obvious after they are explained

but randyrand guessed (I assume correctly, its so obvious I didnt bother checking, googling now ... yep capacitive coupling) without prior explanation. This is one of those 'X, but on a smartphone' patents.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#58

Post by AstralStorm »

vilda wrote: post #40
makomk wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bosch have a better system that doesn't destroy the blade or require the cartridge to be replaced every time because it merely retracts the blade very quickly into the bed, but SawStop are using their patents to stop Bosch from selling it. Apparently they went to the effort of patenting every possible approach that doesn't require the expensive but profitable single-use cartridge even though they have no intention of…

Looking at the system, it looks like even Bosch needs to replace some components after the safety system kicks in.

Yes, the explosive fuses at $1 a pop. It could be improved to use resetable fuses but those are slower. There is a safety trade-off here.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#59

Post by AstralStorm »

falsedan wrote: post #54
yladiz wrote: post #50

I remember seeing this either on Science or Discovery channel when I was younger, talking about great inventions. I remember thinking it was a good idea, but forgot about it until last week when I saw an article pop up about the patent issue but that the FTC is thinking about contemplating making it mandatory. I think it should absolutely be mandatory, but I hope that the FTC can deal with the patent issue and let co…

> I would pay more for a technology that saves my finger Same, and I'm horrified to consider that professional tradesmen whose livelihood depends on their fine muscle control would choose not to pay more for a tool like this. Part of it is the mindset of "I'm not an idiot, I'd never accidentally position my hand anywhere near the blade"; but wood is a natural product with variations, and hitting an unexpected dense s…

You know why heavy gloves are used? Work clothing? Why there are safety rules and mandatory training? Why there are emergency stops?

See, there are other ways to provide safety in this situation. And you cannot make anything really idiot proof. World will find a better idiot.

This automated solution has a major drawback when sawing through anything too capacitive, wet wood, wood with nails etc.

The company pushing the legislation has a major agenda that is not safety - patent licensing.

Re: Despite Proven Technology, Attempts to Make Table Saws Safer Drag On

#60

Post by DiThi »

DanBC wrote: post #49
captainmuon wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And since they are suing, people can't buy Bosch's technology, and probably a lot less saw-stoppers are installed. Also, it seems the SawStop version is destructive, as opposed to Bosch's. That means you have an expense every time it fires. So this lawsuit is causing a lot of lost fingers, and some lost money. It would be really funny (although unrealistic) if somebody could be held responsible for all damages caused…

You have an expense with the Bosch system - you have to replace the explosive cartridges.

Bosch system is cheaper in comparison: You have to replace the cartridges (~$156) which can fire twice (so 78 per activation). With SawStop you have to buy both the break ($69) and the saw (15-100? depends on the saw).

Prices taken from amazon.com (so I don't know how realistic they are, the cartridge may actually be much cheaper, I don't know where to look at the official price)

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