Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Hype or Not? Some Perspective on OpenAI’s DotA 2 Bot

wildml.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 132 posts

Re: Hype or Not? Some Perspective on OpenAI’s DotA 2 Bot

#61

Post by OtterCoder »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #23
thinkfurther wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not worried about actual AGI; infinitely powerful, not bound to the whims of any person or conglomerate. I see human atrocities born out of weakness, so I'm not worried about something that would have gain nothing from torturing or destroying us. That's assuming it can do and think everything we can, and doesn't need us as slaves. E.g. I like sparrows lots. I don't understand them, I wouldn't want them in my room…

Well I think that's a reasonable thought but in my opinion it's not really describing AGI. Rather, it's describing something near AGI that can be controlled. That's why I am vociferously against the "Friendly AI" movement, because fundamentally humans aren't friendly - and that doesn't mean friendly in terms of agreeable or altruistic. Rather "Friendly" as used in the FAI sense, means "Does not reject or override the…

We pride ourselves on being unbeholden, but it's mostly self-deception. Take a look at this, and realize that even in the west, we aren't that far removed in the way our power structures operate.

https://aeon.co/essays/this-is-what-slavery-looks-like-today...

Re: Hype or Not? Some Perspective on OpenAI’s DotA 2 Bot

#62

Post by AndrewKemendo »

thinkfurther wrote: post #45
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be impressive about that? How's that something to get hyped for? I was being somewhat fatuous, as that is a common scare scenario. However, I do believe that it should be our goal as a human species, to create AGI as our intellectual successor. In the same way someone's child replaces them and they die, I think AGI should be our offspring and we as a species go peacefully into oblivion. It's my life's work…

I'd rather first deal with the excessed of greed resulting from psychopathology, because any successor of not doing that, multiplying the failure to do that by "infinite". I don't consider us even born, we're still in a holding pattern, about to be aborted. > I think AGI should be our offspring and we as a species go peacefully into oblivion. This isn't "out there". Just start with religious apocalyptic visions of de…

I'd hardly call a few sentences spelling it all out.

Your point is one I hear often, especially the "what's the point if the heat death is coming anyway."

Basically your argument lies in the "virtue ethics" category of philosophy which argues that man-qua-man should be the best man possible. Eudaimonia in the Stoic tradition and all of that.

Either that you keep your ideas to yourself mostly

Yes this is the case.

Re: Hype or Not? Some Perspective on OpenAI’s DotA 2 Bot

#63

Post by thinkfurther »

visarga wrote: post #38
thinkfurther wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AGI has clearly taken everyone's job in 2100 What would be impressive about that? How's that something to get hyped for? The ways people try to shed their humanity are already well described, and all that's left is to outsource the double think to machines that won't mind and that can't be asked uncomfortable questions about their childhood and such things. It's a straight line, moving decision making from the publ…

You know that all species have to fight for survival? Now there's one more player on the scene. Nothing has changed. We still have to adapt or die. If there's anything that is the largest danger to humanity is humanity itself.

Why not set off all nukes on the planet? All species have to "fight for survival", it'd just one more thing to adapt to, so no actual change.

Why did you even respond to my comment? I mean, electrons are buzzing about all the time, this just another configuration, nothing changed.

> If there's anything that is the largest danger to humanity is humanity itself.

Yeah, and thanks for not helping.

Re: Hype or Not? Some Perspective on OpenAI’s DotA 2 Bot

#64

Post by Twirrim »

frik wrote: post #56
dvt wrote: post #7

Pretty much agree with everything in here. As I said in my earlier posting (and this blog post reiterates), a 1v1 Shadowfiend mid is highly technical and does not require a huge search space (like in Go or Chess) or any judgment; all it takes is a few tactics (e.g. creep blocking) and good aim for the razes. Also, the bot was already beaten 50+ times[1]. There are at least 3 strategies that work. It just goes to show…

This whole OpenAI gets hyped a lot on HN - it's interesting who is behind OpenAI. They are misusing the "Open" name as there is no substantial open in OpenAI - it's also no open source project - it's not related to OpenGL, OpenAL, etc at all! I don't get the hype around AI bots for StarCraft 2 and DotA 2. There is nothing special now, we had such bots developed for many years.

https://github.com/openai

While not everything has been opened, they do have a bunch of things they've opened up, particularly the simulations for training AI in.

Re: Hype or Not? Some Perspective on OpenAI’s DotA 2 Bot

#65

Post by AndrewKemendo »

thinkfurther wrote: post #55
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I think that's a reasonable thought but in my opinion it's not really describing AGI. Rather, it's describing something near AGI that can be controlled. That's why I am vociferously against the "Friendly AI" movement, because fundamentally humans aren't friendly - and that doesn't mean friendly in terms of agreeable or altruistic. Rather "Friendly" as used in the FAI sense, means "Does not reject or override the…

If I had only the two choices, I would absolutely choose unconstrained, actual AGI over something controllable. But that's because the way things are going, I see mostly doom and gloom anyway; controlled AI will increase that, uncontrollable ones are at least wildcards. I'm not proud to feel that way, but I do. I have little hope for the human resistance against other humans that has been necessary for so long and ju…

unless you can make the "jump" in total seclusion

Not sure if this is possible, but I think we can get pretty close.

there will always be people with guns to have a word with you

Yes, well it helps to already be one of those people. I spent 12 years in military intelligence and remain a reserve adviser to the Joint Chiefs and SECDEF on emerging technology.

Re: Hype or Not? Some Perspective on OpenAI’s DotA 2 Bot

#66

Post by goatlover »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #18
thinkfurther wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AGI has clearly taken everyone's job in 2100 What would be impressive about that? How's that something to get hyped for? The ways people try to shed their humanity are already well described, and all that's left is to outsource the double think to machines that won't mind and that can't be asked uncomfortable questions about their childhood and such things. It's a straight line, moving decision making from the publ…

What would be impressive about that? How's that something to get hyped for? I was being somewhat fatuous, as that is a common scare scenario. However, I do believe that it should be our goal as a human species, to create AGI as our intellectual successor. In the same way someone's child replaces them and they die, I think AGI should be our offspring and we as a species go peacefully into oblivion. It's my life's work…

I don't understand the logic. Why should humanity go peacefully into oblivion with the advent of smarter than human machines? Do you feel like all the other species on this planet should have gone extinct with the arrival of homo sapiens?

Your argument is that since B is better than A, only B should exist. But why can't both exist? And what makes your valuation of B objective and universal, such that our grandchildren will go peacefully into oblivion?

Re: Hype or Not? Some Perspective on OpenAI’s DotA 2 Bot

#67

Post by blazespin »

dvt wrote: post #7

Pretty much agree with everything in here. As I said in my earlier posting (and this blog post reiterates), a 1v1 Shadowfiend mid is highly technical and does not require a huge search space (like in Go or Chess) or any judgment; all it takes is a few tactics (e.g. creep blocking) and good aim for the razes. Also, the bot was already beaten 50+ times[1]. There are at least 3 strategies that work. It just goes to show…

Yeah, but the method of learning is interesting - unsupervised training in a VR world. As CPUs become faster, than these type of problems will fall much faster.

Re: Hype or Not? Some Perspective on OpenAI’s DotA 2 Bot

#68

Post by AndrewKemendo »

goatlover wrote: post #66
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be impressive about that? How's that something to get hyped for? I was being somewhat fatuous, as that is a common scare scenario. However, I do believe that it should be our goal as a human species, to create AGI as our intellectual successor. In the same way someone's child replaces them and they die, I think AGI should be our offspring and we as a species go peacefully into oblivion. It's my life's work…

I don't understand the logic. Why should humanity go peacefully into oblivion with the advent of smarter than human machines? Do you feel like all the other species on this planet should have gone extinct with the arrival of homo sapiens? Your argument is that since B is better than A, only B should exist. But why can't both exist? And what makes your valuation of B objective and universal, such that our grandchildre…

The human species will end some day, as most species have. Historically speciation happens through slow pseudo random environmentally pressured transition. My position is that the logical next evolutionary transition will be engineered rather than "natural." And engineered in a way as to accelerate the next transition and so on.

So it's less so that one should be dominant it's that the progression would effectively end speciation for sapiens.

It's not related really to other life. However in effect, our acceleration of extinction of species, through resource use etc tells me that it would likely happen to us similarly.

Re: Hype or Not? Some Perspective on OpenAI’s DotA 2 Bot

#69

Post by [deleted] »

goatlover wrote: post #66
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be impressive about that? How's that something to get hyped for? I was being somewhat fatuous, as that is a common scare scenario. However, I do believe that it should be our goal as a human species, to create AGI as our intellectual successor. In the same way someone's child replaces them and they die, I think AGI should be our offspring and we as a species go peacefully into oblivion. It's my life's work…

I don't understand the logic. Why should humanity go peacefully into oblivion with the advent of smarter than human machines? Do you feel like all the other species on this planet should have gone extinct with the arrival of homo sapiens? Your argument is that since B is better than A, only B should exist. But why can't both exist? And what makes your valuation of B objective and universal, such that our grandchildre…

[deleted]

Re: Hype or Not? Some Perspective on OpenAI’s DotA 2 Bot

#70

Post by goatlover »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #43
rapind wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds pretty lonely no? Wouldn't the most intelligent AI be the only one left standing (just extended globally)?

Lonely for who? Mathematically, yes I would expect one would be left standing, but no reason it would have the same sense of loneliness. Or maybe it would - we wouldn't know.

Only one intelligence left standing is an outcome that most people would find negative. It's like if Skynet was the last survivor of the Terminator franchise. Why would anyone want that outcome?
Post reply on HN