Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#61

Post by cowsandmilk » Thu, May 04, 2017, 5:14 PM UTC

tmsldd wrote: post #11

vnchr wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same thought. It's outlandish that a $1B investment in anything could be viewed as insignificant.

It makes me wonder.. how much Apple invest in China currently?

Apple's latest 10-K has them with 7.807 billion of long-lived assets in China; the majority of that is going to be manufacturing equipment.

They anticipate $16B of capital expenditure in 2017, where the breakdown there is between US Data Centers, the new campus, and manufacturing equipment requires someone who actually does analysis.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#62

Post by wcummings » Thu, May 04, 2017, 5:14 PM UTC

ryanmarsh wrote: post #24

pm90 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American labor was fucked anyways, Globalism only accelerated trends that would have happened anyhow. From a long term perspective, its absolutely amazing that the US has managed to export all the factory level jobs to other countries and yet managed to keep the better paying jobs back here in the states. The current lack of (low skilled) jobs in manufacturing has made it clear to those Americans willing to listen: t…

> continue as a global technological powerhouse (unless it gets fucked by Trumpism and populism of course). Capitalism breathes credit, credit is a function of belief in the future. I'm curious how much protectionism is necessary at home to maintain necessary levels of belief in the future. > they (or their children) need to acquire those skills that make them employable in the 21st century How? What skills are neces…

>I'm curious how much protectionism is necessary at home to maintain necessary levels of belief in the future.

For the people who are actually issuing credit I would say very little is necessary.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#63

Post by nickik » Thu, May 04, 2017, 5:15 PM UTC

sbov wrote: post #51

david-cako wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the answer? Protectionism? That's the thing I don't get, so many people will advocate "fewer regulations", yet are perfectly content with prohibitive tariffs from the place that allows people living in section 8 to afford iPhones. You're 100% right, but i just don't see a good answer other than coming to terms with the fact that cheap labour overseas and automation WILL back us into UBI in the very near future…

But it's not completely a labor play. Some of it is to skirt environmental protections. I'm not going to assume, but if you consider yourself both a globalist and an environmentalist, how do you personally resolve those two beliefs? Anyone reading this who does, how do you resolve those beliefs? I can vote for all the environmental protections that I want, but what good does that do if it just forces companies to man…

The answer is not very hard. People like to attribute everything to regulation but the reality is that most parts of living standards improve when incomes grows.

As China becomes richer they will go threw the same stuff that Britain and later the US did.

Maybe I don't fit the bill as 'envoirmentalist' but I like to live in a place and country with a clean envoirment.

China will have to fix its own problems, and Im sure they eventually will.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#64

Post by samsonradu » Thu, May 04, 2017, 5:16 PM UTC

ice109 wrote: post #41

no1youknowz wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's something else that should shake US and UK highly skilled workers. Our time will soon come as well. In China, they are racing to match and surpass western standards. I would say, they have already matched in some cases. But unlike the west where companies export out to save costs. Companies in China do everything in-house. There will be a time where these 6 figure jobs that some HN users have, will go down by…

what exactly is the problem with this? a 50% pay cut is still a fantastic wage (globally relative). what exactly is wrong with the standard of living going up in other places while ours gets a little worse? also if the tech sector really loses half of it earning power the markets that cater to those people will simply deflate. globalization /is/ good in the long run because it brings supply/demand markets to an equil…

This is quite objectively true. Take a 50% paycut but along with that also cut down the cost of living. Something like Germany today, wages are smaller than in US but the costs of living make their citizens happy(er).

Then there will be less wage discrepancy compared to China and co and jobs start coming back.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#65

Post by kees99 » Thu, May 04, 2017, 5:19 PM UTC

ryanmarsh wrote: post #9

> Cook told "60 Minutes” in 2015. “I mean, you can take every tool and die maker in the United States and probably put them in a room that we’re currently sitting in. In China, you would have to have multiple football fields.” In that interview he also said that the jobs weren't coming back. This is one of the most powerful statements uttered on American labor and employment trends in recent memory. I have shared thi…

I wonder if there was some subtle context to that assertion about fitting all die makers into some (presumably small) room?

Intel make most if its dies in US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_si...

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#66

Post by ryanmarsh » Thu, May 04, 2017, 5:20 PM UTC

no1youknowz wrote: post #30

ryanmarsh wrote: post #9

> Cook told "60 Minutes” in 2015. “I mean, you can take every tool and die maker in the United States and probably put them in a room that we’re currently sitting in. In China, you would have to have multiple football fields.” In that interview he also said that the jobs weren't coming back. This is one of the most powerful statements uttered on American labor and employment trends in recent memory. I have shared thi…

Here's something else that should shake US and UK highly skilled workers. Our time will soon come as well. In China, they are racing to match and surpass western standards. I would say, they have already matched in some cases. But unlike the west where companies export out to save costs. Companies in China do everything in-house. There will be a time where these 6 figure jobs that some HN users have, will go down by…

> There will be a time where these 6 figure jobs that some HN users have, will go down by 50%. Why? Better coders outside of the US, UK, EUR, etc.

One of my clients is one of the largest multinational corp. in the world. They're excellent at getting things done, above average at remote work, and obviously have offices around the world. Their primary industry has a drastically changing demographic in the US which is prompting a hiring wave of younger people. They would love nothing more than to hire most of them outside of the US. The schools in several countries in Asia outperform the US in the necessary areas of study and they speak fine English. I'm not talking about India. My client is working very hard to make this a reality. They will eventually pull it off. These jobs are all very good paying white collar jobs. I'm telling you the middle class in the US hasn't seen the beginning of the devastation they are about to endure.

This is a trend that will continue until all labor is (as) equal (as an imperfect market will allow) no matter the geography. I see no trends (other than nationalism) that will make this stop.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#67

Post by nickik » Thu, May 04, 2017, 5:21 PM UTC

carsongross wrote: post #54

theptip wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trade has certainly fucked _some_ workers. But it helped others; it's just a lot harder to see the ways in which the average American worker is better off, because the benefits of trade are spread across the economy, and the costs are concentrated among a smaller number of individuals. Here's a libertarian making this point: http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2017/04/does_trade_with.... "Using novel data on firms fr…

> But it's not as cut and dried as your last paragraph suggests. It was the libertarians and liberal economic establishment who claimed it was cut and dried that unrestricted free trade was better for all Americans. Anyone who objected (Buchanan, Perot, now Trump) was obviously stupid, and probably racist.

No economist makes the argument that free trade is better for all americans. Thats simply not what economic theory says.

Economist have studid the problem for a long time and the wastly overwhelming majority still support it. They have actually fought about the problem quite a bit.

You would do well to actually understand the argument instead of mischaracterising it.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#68

Post by cmdrfred » Thu, May 04, 2017, 5:22 PM UTC

mikeyouse wrote: post #53

pm90 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really that odd? Its a way for companies to prevent getting hit by a Trump tweet that deplores them for not hiring enough Americans. So now, everyone wants to portray any US investment they make, any US workers they hire, loudly and with big but vague/unspecific numbers.

Exactly this, which is also why every single automaker now publicly announces their retooling costs and shift changes for new model years. "We're spending $4B to improve manufacturing and hiring 10,000 workers" is a politically friendly headline even if you've done the same thing every year for the past few decades.

If that is true why was that message not popular under Obama as well?

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#69

Post by Akkuma » Thu, May 04, 2017, 5:22 PM UTC

no1youknowz wrote: post #30

ryanmarsh wrote: post #9

> Cook told "60 Minutes” in 2015. “I mean, you can take every tool and die maker in the United States and probably put them in a room that we’re currently sitting in. In China, you would have to have multiple football fields.” In that interview he also said that the jobs weren't coming back. This is one of the most powerful statements uttered on American labor and employment trends in recent memory. I have shared thi…

Here's something else that should shake US and UK highly skilled workers. Our time will soon come as well. In China, they are racing to match and surpass western standards. I would say, they have already matched in some cases. But unlike the west where companies export out to save costs. Companies in China do everything in-house. There will be a time where these 6 figure jobs that some HN users have, will go down by…

I think this is overestimating how qualified the coders are in the east compared to their western peers. Everyone I've known from Hong Kong decried the education of mainland China. They said the education comes down to repeating book knowledge, so just memorization, and the inability to handle scenarios not covered by that.

I'll be more concerned once leading technologies that are used by the rest of the world come out of China and not from the US.

Re: Apple plans to spend $1B to support advanced manufacturing jobs in the U.S

#70

Post by colordrops » Thu, May 04, 2017, 5:23 PM UTC

david-cako wrote: post #34

ryanmarsh wrote: post #9

> Cook told "60 Minutes” in 2015. “I mean, you can take every tool and die maker in the United States and probably put them in a room that we’re currently sitting in. In China, you would have to have multiple football fields.” In that interview he also said that the jobs weren't coming back. This is one of the most powerful statements uttered on American labor and employment trends in recent memory. I have shared thi…

What's the answer? Protectionism? That's the thing I don't get, so many people will advocate "fewer regulations", yet are perfectly content with prohibitive tariffs from the place that allows people living in section 8 to afford iPhones. You're 100% right, but i just don't see a good answer other than coming to terms with the fact that cheap labour overseas and automation WILL back us into UBI in the very near future…

> protectionism

Why not? It works for so many other countries. Is it not a fundamental characteristic of government to prioritize its citizens over others? Without that, we've got a de facto world government with dissolved borders but that only benefits the rich and powerful. If we truly want to give equal rights and privileges to everyone on Earth we should make global governance explicit to make sure the poor and disenfranchised get fair representation.