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Apple & HTML5

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Re: Apple & HTML5

#61

Post by niceguy101 »

buster wrote: post #36
buster wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much for "standard". I wouldn't have expected understanding of "open" from this company, anyway. Yesterday Flash was bad, but today it's fine to write websites that only work in Safari, while using some Apple-specific HTML/CSS-tags.

It's funny how many comments with the same opinion here get downvoted but no explanations why it's fine to add your own extensions to HTML/CSS (hello good old IE days). At least make your statements when downvoting so many people.

Stop the Apple hate , and you wont be downvoted. You guys are not adding anything good to the discussion by criticizing apple.

Re: Apple & HTML5

#62

Post by alanh »

buster wrote: post #57
alanh wrote: post #51

This is meant as inspiration, as an eye-opener, a PR move, and a gift to web developers & designers. It does use emerging web standards . Just because some of them are not reliable everywhere does not discount that it’s all to be found in W3C and WHATWG draft specs. Note the HTML itself: They’re using , , . It’s really HTML5. (Remember, we consider things “standard” even before IE supports them.) This is not meant as…

Where exactly do you find -webkit-transform in some CSS-standard, again? So, you are saying all those -webkit-* CSS styles are CSS3 standarized?

In the standard, it’s just "transform". "-webkit-" is called a "CSS vendor prefix" and the idea is this: If the standard changes before it’s finalized — it does happen — but Safari just implemented "transform" and not "-webkit-transform", then sites created in the interim could be stuck with broken CSS, retroactively. Mozilla did this forever ago with "-moz-border-radius" rounded corners. Even Microsoft started using the "-ms-" vendor prefix.

Apple using "-webkit-" is actually preserves the "open" and "standards" parts of "open standards". Otherwise it’s embrace and extend. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace_extend_and_extinguish)

Edit: For clarity, this is how things like -webkit-transform are born (slightly simplified):

1. Apple (or Mozilla, or Opera, or Microsoft) decides it would be nice if the web stack could do X.

2. Apple devises a property and syntax, implements it internally, evaluates performance hits, iterates, etc.

3. Apple releases a public developer build (a "nightly") with X, using the -webkit- prefix, and blogs about it. http://webkit.org/blog/130/css-transforms/

4. Apple drafts a spec (no "-webkit-") and submits it to relevant standards bodies

5. Standards bodies, browser makers, and document authors weigh in

6. The draft is modified, clarified, dropped, and/or implemented elsewhere. http://webkit.org/blog/130/css-transforms/#comment-23010

7. The draft becomes more or less finalized, and user agents should support X without a vendor prefix

Re: Apple & HTML5

#63

Post by niceguy101 »

loewenskind wrote: post #54
papachito wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that they block Chrome 5 too, which is more advanced than Safari 4 (newer version of webkit).

Except that it isn't. You can run the demo in Chrome if you want. Someone in this thread did...

I tried, but didnt work in Chrome. Not that i want it to. Safari is the only browser on my mac and works almost fine.

Re: Apple & HTML5

#64

Post by sirn »

buster wrote: post #57
alanh wrote: post #51

This is meant as inspiration, as an eye-opener, a PR move, and a gift to web developers & designers. It does use emerging web standards . Just because some of them are not reliable everywhere does not discount that it’s all to be found in W3C and WHATWG draft specs. Note the HTML itself: They’re using , , . It’s really HTML5. (Remember, we consider things “standard” even before IE supports them.) This is not meant as…

Where exactly do you find -webkit-transform in some CSS-standard, again? So, you are saying all those -webkit-* CSS styles are CSS3 standarized?

Using vendor prefixes does not equal to being non-standard, from the CSS3 Working Draft[1]:

> there are situations (experiments, implementations of W3C drafts that have not yet reached Candidate Recommendation, intra-nets, debugging, etc.) where it is convenient to add some nonstandard identifiers to a CSS style sheet.

Most extension Apple used in the demo page are part of CSS3 Working Draft, including CSS transform[2].

[1]: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-syntax/#vendor-specific

[2]: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-3d-transforms/

Re: Apple & HTML5

#65

Post by netcan »

dieterrams wrote: post #48

Wow. I can only imagine what the reaction would have been if Google released this with Chrome-only demos. Lots of praise about how Google's leading the way, pushing browsers forward, and you really ought to give Chrome a try. But when Apple does it? A barrage of complaints about how Apple doesn't support standards. It's laughable how transparently people are looking for something, anything to bitch about when it come…

C'est la vie

Once you're suspect, you're suspect. If you've got the benefit of the doubt, you've got the benefit of the doubt.

Overall, that's probably more good then bad. We'd like to think we can be objective, but we probably can't. These crutches are there for a reason.

Re: Apple & HTML5

#66

Post by alanh »

tmsh wrote: post #56
alanh wrote: post #51

This is meant as inspiration, as an eye-opener, a PR move, and a gift to web developers & designers. It does use emerging web standards . Just because some of them are not reliable everywhere does not discount that it’s all to be found in W3C and WHATWG draft specs. Note the HTML itself: They’re using , , . It’s really HTML5. (Remember, we consider things “standard” even before IE supports them.) This is not meant as…

The issue may be, however, that the standards committees for HTML5 haven't defined how different implementations of these standards are supposed to play together. And the question is: does Apple have the right to define how HTML5 should be handled cross-browser? (In this case, by very simply denying all non-Safari browsers -- at least via that link -- the developer links work -- kind of.) In all fairness, I think the…

I’m sorry, but I am not sure what you are saying.

Web standards circles agree that "browser sniffing" as opposed to "feature detection" is kind of evil. (See http://modernizr.com for one way to do it right.) This, however, is a very special case, where the whole point is showing what ones specific browser can do.

Generally, the user's browser is irrelevant to the point of a website, and supporting as many browsers as possible is best.

In this case, the user’s browser matters most, as no other browser currently has 100% feature parity with Safari features used in these demos.

Re: Apple & HTML5

#67

Post by buster »

dieterrams wrote: post #48

Wow. I can only imagine what the reaction would have been if Google released this with Chrome-only demos. Lots of praise about how Google's leading the way, pushing browsers forward, and you really ought to give Chrome a try. But when Apple does it? A barrage of complaints about how Apple doesn't support standards. It's laughable how transparently people are looking for something, anything to bitch about when it come…

So, when MS crippled web development for years with it's browser strategy and proprietary crap it was widely considered very harmful for the web. Now, when Apple does it, it's "pushing the web forward"? We would all use ActiveX controls and be stuck with IE6 if everyone would think like you. And i would argue every company would get the same "hate". Even worse, we've all had this in the past, now we should do everything to keep things a standard and open, because we know where it leads.

Re: Apple & HTML5

#68

Post by al_james »

Has anyone tried these on iPad or iPhone? Some of them are not smooth on my macbook, surly they must suck on a low CPU device? Or am I wrong?

Re: Apple & HTML5

#69

Post by niceguy101 »

dieterrams wrote: post #48

Wow. I can only imagine what the reaction would have been if Google released this with Chrome-only demos. Lots of praise about how Google's leading the way, pushing browsers forward, and you really ought to give Chrome a try. But when Apple does it? A barrage of complaints about how Apple doesn't support standards. It's laughable how transparently people are looking for something, anything to bitch about when it come…

Apple may not allow Java, Flash, Qt and all that on their platform unlike Google's Android(which is open to everything from anyone!). Apple might want to make sure that webkit replaces these unnecessary platforms by implementing exclusive and innovative features. And everyone is like bitching about Apple trying to be the internet monopoly and all that. I am sick and tired of all this Apple hate!

Re: Apple & HTML5

#70

Post by niceguy101 »

al_james wrote: post #68

Has anyone tried these on iPad or iPhone? Some of them are not smooth on my macbook, surly they must suck on a low CPU device? Or am I wrong?

Tried on my iphone and iPad. The demos work at low framerate and is kind of slow. But its just a mobile device. I am not really expecting cpu intensive html5 application to work on these light devices. Thats what my macpro is for.
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