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Apple & HTML5

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Re: Apple & HTML5

#51

Post by alanh »

This is meant as inspiration, as an eye-opener, a PR move, and a gift to web developers & designers.

It does use emerging web standards. Just because some of them are not reliable everywhere does not discount that it’s all to be found in W3C and WHATWG draft specs. Note the HTML itself: They’re using , , . It’s really HTML5. (Remember, we consider things “standard” even before IE supports them.)

This is not meant as a compendium of current best practices. Progressive enhancement still applies in the real world. Apple knows that.

If you are criticizing this for being not cross-browser enough, you are completely missing the point.

Re: Apple & HTML5

#53

Post by loewenskind »

mrvir wrote: post #45
noibl wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compare: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/ 'W3C Working Draft 4 March 2010' http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/ 'W3C Recommendation 24 December 1999' So by 'recommendation', am I to assume you're talking about HTML 4.01? (edit: again with the downvotes, no answer...)

Upvoted. You are correct. HTML5 is not yet even approved W3C candidate recommendation. To be more accurate Apple should have said that it is committed in implementing HTML5 standard, not that it has done it, because at the moment HTML5 is not ready. From Wikipedia: "Ian Hickson, editor of the HTML5 specification, expects the specification to reach the W3C Candidate Recommendation stage during 2012, and W3C Recommenda…

2022? Then those guys move too slow to be useful. Good on Jobs for trying to force it to move at a more reasonable pace. There is no reason to wait so long.

Re: Apple & HTML5

#54

Post by loewenskind »

papachito wrote: post #26
thought_alarm wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They explicitly say this on the front page: "Not all browsers offer this support. But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards — and the amazing things they enable web designers to do"

The problem is that they block Chrome 5 too, which is more advanced than Safari 4 (newer version of webkit).

Except that it isn't. You can run the demo in Chrome if you want. Someone in this thread did...

Re: Apple & HTML5

#55

Post by pedrokost »

tumult wrote: post #15
bradgessler wrote: post #3

Neat idea, very poor implementation. If you try to view the examples in Google Chrome, you'll get a notice that you have to download Safari ( http://skitch.com/bradgessler/dgw7p/apple-html5 ) This sets a very poor example for Apple supporting standards.

Some of the demos only work in Safari. Even a nightly Chromium snapshot does not support everything that Safari does. I ran Chromium with my user agent set to Safari. And here's where it gets interesting. The demos that don't work in Chromium, notably the ones that require CSS 3D transforms, get removed from the listings on the pages that have them. So for example, the "Transitions" page, only the Dissolve, Toss, Sli…

What is the purpose of showing demos that work only on Safari? How can one call this a standard? Standards should work everywhere IMO. One of the many criterion I use to define a standard is that it is widely available. Right now, Flash is more a standard than HTML5 according to this criterion. Jobs is doing what Gates was doing - locking everyone on his platform. I don't know the stats but the Safari browser share is very low (on Desktops).

Re: Apple & HTML5

#56

Post by tmsh »

alanh wrote: post #51

This is meant as inspiration, as an eye-opener, a PR move, and a gift to web developers & designers. It does use emerging web standards . Just because some of them are not reliable everywhere does not discount that it’s all to be found in W3C and WHATWG draft specs. Note the HTML itself: They’re using , , . It’s really HTML5. (Remember, we consider things “standard” even before IE supports them.) This is not meant as…

The issue may be, however, that the standards committees for HTML5 haven't defined how different implementations of these standards are supposed to play together. And the question is: does Apple have the right to define how HTML5 should be handled cross-browser? (In this case, by very simply denying all non-Safari browsers -- at least via that link -- the developer links work -- kind of.) In all fairness, I think they do if other people haven't said anything else about it. But in even more fairness, perhaps other people (specifically the working groups) should make it more clear about whether or not you can target specific browsers.

If you want to do things progressively, there should be a feature matrix, and as more and more enhancements are fully implemented in all major browsers, one shouldn't be able to specify which browser you must use.

It's probably just my ignorance. But it's not clear to me where the lines are between best practices, web standards, and fairness (forcing a browser of course evokes nightmarish legal history a la Microsoft).

I suppose I should look through:

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/

If anyone can point me in the right direction though (or maybe I'm asking the wrong questions), that'd be cool.

I suppose the risk is that because HTML5 has so many different features, it would be easy to basically not standardize. If Apple is the only company that fully supports interesting parts of the standard and they keep on iterating and nobody catches up -- is that really a standard? But are we right to deny them further development and innovation? I think there's a balance, but where is that balance? We've now got a lot of cooks in the kitchen:

http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=40318&publi...

Hope it works. But you know what they say about committees, second-system syndrome, etc... Though honestly it's not like I see any other solution....

Though an easy to browse website that showed near real-time progress of all the major browsers' implementations of the HTML5 feature set, so we can at least see the playing field. That might be a start.... I definitely think it's in everyone's interest to cooperate.

ETA. Found this for HTML5/CSS3 feature matrix:

http://caniuse.com/

Re: Apple & HTML5

#57

Post by buster »

alanh wrote: post #51

This is meant as inspiration, as an eye-opener, a PR move, and a gift to web developers & designers. It does use emerging web standards . Just because some of them are not reliable everywhere does not discount that it’s all to be found in W3C and WHATWG draft specs. Note the HTML itself: They’re using , , . It’s really HTML5. (Remember, we consider things “standard” even before IE supports them.) This is not meant as…

Where exactly do you find -webkit-transform in some CSS-standard, again? So, you are saying all those -webkit-* CSS styles are CSS3 standarized?

Re: Apple & HTML5

#58

Post by pedrokost »

I don't really understand this claim: "Standards aren’t add-ons to the web. They are the web. And you can start using them today." Standards should therefore be right there, sitting in you computer for someone to use them. Why do I have to download Safari then? I prefer to download a 2MB add-on than 30MB additional browser that I will never use.

Re: Apple & HTML5

#59

Post by niceguy101 »

alanh wrote: post #51

This is meant as inspiration, as an eye-opener, a PR move, and a gift to web developers & designers. It does use emerging web standards . Just because some of them are not reliable everywhere does not discount that it’s all to be found in W3C and WHATWG draft specs. Note the HTML itself: They’re using , , . It’s really HTML5. (Remember, we consider things “standard” even before IE supports them.) This is not meant as…

Absolutely. I cant stand all this Apple hate here. People should just stop criticizing Apple for everything they do.

Re: Apple & HTML5

#60

Post by c1sc0 »

willhankinson wrote: post #34

Where are the games?

This move is not about games but about iads. (funny side note: iPad insists on spelling that as aids, ouch) apple is pushing htm5 because it will be an essential component of apple's next money-making machine: advertising. And html5 is a great match for advertising: html5 may not be ready for hardcore gaming, but chucking a few banner ads at the peplum, no problem!
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