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A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

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Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#61
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a middle ground of letting legitimate buyers purchase tickets and then selling them on the secondary market if they are unable to attend. And nothing stops those people from buying a ticket from someone who is no longer able to attend on StubHub. Bands aren't putting on a show so that their wealthiest fans can attend.

>And nothing stops those people from buying a ticket from someone who is no longer able to attend on StubHub. And the difference between that and scalping to the buyer is ? If you can't bid on the price you're still relying on luck to get it which sucks if you want to pay more. So your argument was that only scalpers benefit - people who can now secure tickets at a markup also benefited.

The difference is that hundreds if not thousands of fans for a large event are not automatically pushed to the more expensive secondary market for no reason other than profit making by a few people.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#62
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but some fan wasn't going to make it either way. Why should the fan who is willing to pay more money have to miss out, in favour of a fan who is paying less money?

> Why should the fan who is willing to pay more money have to miss out, in favour of a fan who is paying less money? They shouldn't necessarily have to. They should have to do the same amount of waiting in line, or struggling with whatever online box office system is in place. Having more money doesn't imply being more deserving of going to an event. Without scalpers it would be more about the effort and desire to at…

> If you don't have time because you're working too much, consider that a sacrifice you're making to be more wealthy.

Funny how we scramble to defend making anything that needs investment in time/effort/emotion/people, but can't be bought, into something that can eventually be purchased by someone with enough wealth. As if that's the most just state of affairs.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#63
post #43
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have never yet seen a system that cannot be beat by scalpers, including paperless ticketing, and I find that most venues and artists want to maximize profits anyway. How would a scalper get around ticketing that requires presenting ID that matches the name of the person on the ticket? I've been to a few shows that were like that for pickup up tickets at the will call booth. I suppose you could get them there and…

> How would a scalper get around ticketing that requires presenting ID that matches the name of the person on the ticket? The article mentions a workaround for this: > So-called "paperless" tickets are an antiscalping measure that requires the purchasing credit card to be presented at the venue on the night of the concert. This requirement makes scalpers' lives much harder but is regularly circumvented by the most se…

That's one way. There are a few more. I know people who would have three credit cards, buy 24 tickets, and fly around the country picking them up. One guy I talked to had seen Metallica every time they played in the past 10 years and made a good chunk of cash doing so.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#64
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a middle ground of letting legitimate buyers purchase tickets and then selling them on the secondary market if they are unable to attend. Automated bots/teams of people buying many tickets purely for the sake of profit doesn't benefit anyone other than the scalpers.

>Automated bots/teams of people buying many tickets purely for the sake of profit doesn't benefit anyone other than the scalpers. He just told you - it benefits people who want to pay more but would otherwise have to rely on luck to buy the tickets - this is the entire reason the system works.

It makes it nearly impossible for anything that isn't a machine to acquire retail tickets. When 496/500 GA tickets go to a bot, the scarcity and price are artificially inflated.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#65
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should the fan who is willing to pay more money have to miss out, in favour of a fan who is paying less money? They shouldn't necessarily have to. They should have to do the same amount of waiting in line, or struggling with whatever online box office system is in place. Having more money doesn't imply being more deserving of going to an event. Without scalpers it would be more about the effort and desire to at…

> If you don't have time because you're working too much, consider that a sacrifice you're making to be more wealthy. Funny how we scramble to defend making anything that needs investment in time/effort/emotion/people, but can't be bought, into something that can eventually be purchased by someone with enough wealth. As if that's the most just state of affairs.

It sounds like you're saying it's humorous that we don't like rich people dropping loads of cash on things that should be fairly available to everyone?

I don't see the funny.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#66
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a middle ground of letting legitimate buyers purchase tickets and then selling them on the secondary market if they are unable to attend. Automated bots/teams of people buying many tickets purely for the sake of profit doesn't benefit anyone other than the scalpers.

>Automated bots/teams of people buying many tickets purely for the sake of profit doesn't benefit anyone other than the scalpers. He just told you - it benefits people who want to pay more but would otherwise have to rely on luck to buy the tickets - this is the entire reason the system works.

> it benefits people who want to pay more but would otherwise have to rely on luck to buy the tickets

Where I come from we call these "better seats" or "VIP passes" and they are sold directly through a venue. Not through middlemen that only add value through the scarcity they create.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#67
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't have time because you're working too much, consider that a sacrifice you're making to be more wealthy. Funny how we scramble to defend making anything that needs investment in time/effort/emotion/people, but can't be bought, into something that can eventually be purchased by someone with enough wealth. As if that's the most just state of affairs.

It sounds like you're saying it's humorous that we don't like rich people dropping loads of cash on things that should be fairly available to everyone? I don't see the funny.

I'm saying it's funny how we tend to find excuses to justify and moralize that behavior. The top-level comment does this by explaining why driving up the cost of a commodity by creating scarcity is a good thing because rich people who don't want to wait in line can now cut it, while everyone gets to pay more assuming they can afford the new price.

By funny I mean tragic.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#68
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about deserving in any sort of moral sense. If I offer you $1000 for something you're selling, and someone else offers $2000, who are you going to sell it to? He obviously is willing to give you more, so give it to him. That's fair. That's life. EDIT: And if you sell it to me for $1000, don't be surprised if I turn around and sell it to the $2000 guy. He wants it more than I do, and he's going to get it one…

But that's not the situation at hand. It's three people offering me $1000 for something, I give it to you because you're the first person. Then, you turn around and say "hey, I'm selling this for $2000 because I never wanted it in the first place!" The two other people who were waiting can't afford it. Some other guy comes along later who can afford it and pays up. It's not fair, it's one of the nasty grimy sides of…

> Scalpers are 100% middle-men who don't add value. The tickets would sell at base cost. All they do is artificially inflate the value of tickets.

Economic theory would say that

1) value, in contrast to price, is personal. Everything has a different value to everyone. For instance, it's a good bet French books have more value to me than to you, because I actually speak that language.

2) inflating value is impossible. Cannot be done

So scalpers inflate the price, not the value. And only because of an inefficient market. Why is a lower price market inefficient ? It's not at equilibrium. That means there are either shortages or oversupply. And indeed : your complaint points out exactly that : a shortage.

The scalpers actually do provide services for that profit :

1) they maintain ticket availability far beyond the original sale

2) they take risk away from the artist (some scalpers even in cooperation with the artist)

(I bet real scalpers would also point out that both of these, the investment and the extended availability involve actual work that needs to be done. As in answering mails, posting stuff online, going out to sell the tickets, ...)

So you're wrong on both fronts. They neither inflate value, nor do they lack services.

And frankly, the only person who can solve this for real is the artist : if they find a way to do enough shows so everyone can watch, that is (obviously) the only way to guarantee everyone can make it. This is not hard, but because of the risk rarely done. Ironically, more and earlier scalping is one of the things that would make it a lot easier for the artist to do this, at least financially. Some artists do this, but perhaps that is more work for less (average) reward for the artist.

Given these incentives, I would expect firstly that artists and venues would scalp tickets themselves, and secondly that all attempts at stomping out scalping will both make the problem worse and merely be a method to guarantee more profit for the designated scalpers. Of course in practice those are also exactly the people who don't want to take the financial risk, and so you'll have pussyfooting all around, lack of conviction, general complaints by everyone, and screwups.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#69
post #8

> The scourge of ticket bots and the immorality of the shady ticket scalpers using them is conventional wisdom I very much disagree. If I am willing to pay the asking price for tickets, I should be able to buy them. If you're offering them so cheaply that I will happily buy all of the tickets then you're offering them too cheap and you can't really complain if I buy them. If it weren't for ticket-scalpers, die-hard f…

Ticket scalping hurts artist exposure by finding an equilibrium point on price alone, where many artists may really want to maximize audience size and not earnings from tickets. Concerts are like promotional events for their brand and many people buy albums, swag, post on social media about the event, and that's all beneficial to the artist. Ticket scalping removes the ability of the artist to maximize attendance (and potentially limits the groups in attendance to ones outside the bands core marketing demographics)

I think it is more complicated than treating tickets as widgets to be sold.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but some fan wasn't going to make it either way. Why should the fan who is willing to pay more money have to miss out, in favour of a fan who is paying less money?

Well, why should the fan who is able to pay less money miss out in favor of the fan who has more? Are people fundamentally more deserving for having more disposable income? The Artist (ie the provider of the 'value') is not making more profit, they have set what they feel their work is worth. Scalpers add no value and simply take. Automation of scalping is bad for everybody involved (edit: except of course the scalpe…

This is just a concert we're talking about. Not healthcare. Not food. Not baby formula. Totally expendable and not crucial to life.
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