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A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

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Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#41

Post by kbenson »

ryandrake wrote: post #3

> "There's an emotional aspect to what artists do, which is to say 'I'm not willing to charge $500 even though clearly the market value is $500. I'm going to charge $100, and at the end of the day someone else is going to make that money,'" The bots are just a symptom. Seems like this is likely the root of the problem. If the primary market was efficient, then there would be no secondary market, and the whole point o…

Even with an accurate primary market, the secondary market would exist. For example, and artist may sell out their event, but then become more popular, causing tickets to be worth more. Some percentage of people will decide that they would rather have the profit than the ticket. Ticket holders may also find they are unable (or no longer want to) attend, so may want to sell their tickets.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#42

Post by RodericDay »

jstanley wrote: post #31
vertex-four wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? The only reason to believe this is to believe that having more money means you're inherently more deserving of things, no matter the wishes of the people providing those things.

It's not about deserving in any sort of moral sense. If I offer you $1000 for something you're selling, and someone else offers $2000, who are you going to sell it to? He obviously is willing to give you more, so give it to him. That's fair. That's life. EDIT: And if you sell it to me for $1000, don't be surprised if I turn around and sell it to the $2000 guy. He wants it more than I do, and he's going to get it one…

There are numerous reasons why I could and would choose to go with the first person in spite of a lower offer.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#43

Post by xur17 »

koolba wrote: post #30
austenallred wrote: post #22

I spent some of my formidable years scalping and brokering event (mostly broadway) tickets in various forms. The company I co-founded made a few million and I learned an expensive lesson in equity at age 18 (I opted instead for the $14/hr salary). We worked in broadway (meaning the style of show, not just the street), and I met the Wiseguys folks at secondary market trade shows, but I had no idea they were this big,…

> I have never yet seen a system that cannot be beat by scalpers, including paperless ticketing, and I find that most venues and artists want to maximize profits anyway. How would a scalper get around ticketing that requires presenting ID that matches the name of the person on the ticket? I've been to a few shows that were like that for pickup up tickets at the will call booth. I suppose you could get them there and…

> How would a scalper get around ticketing that requires presenting ID that matches the name of the person on the ticket?

The article mentions a workaround for this:

> So-called "paperless" tickets are an antiscalping measure that requires the purchasing credit card to be presented at the venue on the night of the concert. This requirement makes scalpers' lives much harder but is regularly circumvented by the most serious operations. Wiseguy, for instance, told its wholesalers to ask their customers for their credit cards before a sale happened. Wiseguy then used its bot to buy paperless tickets directly on fans' credit cards.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#44

Post by [deleted] »

tomtoise wrote: post #12
jstanley wrote: post #8

> The scourge of ticket bots and the immorality of the shady ticket scalpers using them is conventional wisdom I very much disagree. If I am willing to pay the asking price for tickets, I should be able to buy them. If you're offering them so cheaply that I will happily buy all of the tickets then you're offering them too cheap and you can't really complain if I buy them. If it weren't for ticket-scalpers, die-hard f…

> Everyone's a winner. Except perhaps those die-hard fans who do not have the extra money available to see what may be a once-in-a-lifetime show. Perhaps a more correct ending would be "Everyone who has enough disposable income is a winner."

[deleted]

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#45

Post by jdpedrie »

tomtoise wrote: post #26
jstanley wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but some fan wasn't going to make it either way. Why should the fan who is willing to pay more money have to miss out, in favour of a fan who is paying less money?

Well, why should the fan who is able to pay less money miss out in favor of the fan who has more? Are people fundamentally more deserving for having more disposable income? The Artist (ie the provider of the 'value') is not making more profit, they have set what they feel their work is worth. Scalpers add no value and simply take. Automation of scalping is bad for everybody involved (edit: except of course the scalpe…

Are some people fundamentally more deserving for having the time to wait in line outside a venue, or click reload on their computer for hours? It's funny that we implicitly accept that money is the way of assigning resources to their most valued use for most everything, but for some reason that logic doesn't apply to concert tickets.

If the performer were concerned about actually helping poorer people attend (rather than simply virtue-signaling), they could raise the ticket price to market value, and implement a lottery system for some block of tickets, similar to what the producers of Hamilton do. Best of both worlds!

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#46

Post by rubber_duck »

rhino369 wrote: post #33
rubber_duck wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Automated bots/teams of people buying many tickets purely for the sake of profit doesn't benefit anyone other than the scalpers. He just told you - it benefits people who want to pay more but would otherwise have to rely on luck to buy the tickets - this is the entire reason the system works.

The people running the show could just sell the tickets using an auction mechanism. It doesn't make sense to let a middle man take a huge cut. Well it probably does make sense for PR reasons. Nobody wants to be the band/team/event gouging their fans.

>Well it probably does make sense for PR reasons. Nobody wants to be the band/team/event gouging their fans.

Yes and this is why they exist :)

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#47

Post by hitgeek »

venues need to just formalize the unofficial auction + lottery system that already exists in various secondary markets.

some tickets are sold via auction, others are offered at a set price to those who win a lottery.

The only difference is that venues + artists can benefit rather than middlemen.

I think VR has the potential to help alleviate some of the market pressures by offering an experience with nearly limitless supply.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#48

Post by ctrl-j »

jstanley wrote: post #31
vertex-four wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? The only reason to believe this is to believe that having more money means you're inherently more deserving of things, no matter the wishes of the people providing those things.

It's not about deserving in any sort of moral sense. If I offer you $1000 for something you're selling, and someone else offers $2000, who are you going to sell it to? He obviously is willing to give you more, so give it to him. That's fair. That's life. EDIT: And if you sell it to me for $1000, don't be surprised if I turn around and sell it to the $2000 guy. He wants it more than I do, and he's going to get it one…

But that's not the situation at hand.

It's three people offering me $1000 for something, I give it to you because you're the first person. Then, you turn around and say "hey, I'm selling this for $2000 because I never wanted it in the first place!"

The two other people who were waiting can't afford it. Some other guy comes along later who can afford it and pays up.

It's not fair, it's one of the nasty grimy sides of capitalism.

Scalpers are 100% middle-men who don't add value. The tickets would sell at base cost. All they do is artificially inflate the value of tickets.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#49

Post by gpvos »

jstanley wrote: post #8

> The scourge of ticket bots and the immorality of the shady ticket scalpers using them is conventional wisdom I very much disagree. If I am willing to pay the asking price for tickets, I should be able to buy them. If you're offering them so cheaply that I will happily buy all of the tickets then you're offering them too cheap and you can't really complain if I buy them. If it weren't for ticket-scalpers, die-hard f…

> Without ticket scalping: [...] Some fans get to watch the gig, and others don't, and the availability of tickets bears no relation to how much you're willing to pay to get hold of one, only to how quickly you decide to book one.

How quickly one decides to book a ticket seems like a better way to define a die-hard fan than how much money one has available for a ticket.

Re: A scalper who used bots to buy millions of tickets, now wants to stop them

#50

Post by snarf21 »

simonsarris wrote: post #35
jstanley wrote: post #8

> The scourge of ticket bots and the immorality of the shady ticket scalpers using them is conventional wisdom I very much disagree. If I am willing to pay the asking price for tickets, I should be able to buy them. If you're offering them so cheaply that I will happily buy all of the tickets then you're offering them too cheap and you can't really complain if I buy them. If it weren't for ticket-scalpers, die-hard f…

You reasoning is a pretty good example of why the median person should be very wary of anyone saying that free markets and their "efficiency" are a good thing, or will result in good outcomes for them. They will result in good outcomes for the richest, sure. We can agree to that. You are conflating die-hard fans with die-hard wealthy fans which is a little silly. Not all fans have the same marginal value of pocket ch…

Isn't this easily solved with a fan club that any member gets up to 2 tickets that are non transferable (physical printed tickets only via mail)? The benefit of being in the club is to getting access to these. Rich has a lot less to do it and then there are a lot less for the bots anyway.

People are lazy and will always choose the easiest option. If the only way to get good seats and cheap tickets is a fan club (e.g.) and you make that simple, people will change their behavior. If you can only get good seats on StubHub, that's where you'll go.

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