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Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill

bbc.com

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Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill

#61

Post by RealityVoid »

elastic_church wrote: post #27
cletus wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upvote. Not sure why you're getting downvoted because you are correct: London salaries are pitiful even before you factor in the enormous cost of living there (I lived and worked in London for 4 years but did contracting as the salaries even 10+ years ago were and are a joke comparatively). It's one reason I and many others work in the US instead. No idea what Brexit will do to relative incomes. It depends on what ha…

Simply put, I would not code for other people at the salaries that Romanians accept.

Only because you have the luxury of refusing.

Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill

#62

Post by vixen99 »

manicdee wrote: post #16
throwaway91111 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably, it's better to elect flawed but representative people. How else are people to learn?

Learn what? That the slip from representative democracy to genocide-crazy fascism is one election cycle?

Does representative democracy equate with EU lawmaking whereby it is the unelected commission that have the sole right to propose legislation'? Yes, that is actually the case, believe it or not.

Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill

#63

Post by ue_ »

aryehof wrote: post #59
edblarney wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In the UK, Parliament is sovereign." The EU courts can declare any bit of UK Parliamentary action 'unconstitutional'. Within the EU, UK Parliament is not quite 'sovereign' :)

The EU can do what they want, including jumping up and down and yelling 'unconstitutional'. Any devolvement to Europe can be removed, just like the Queen could be - by acts of Parliament.

How could the Queen be practically removed by Parliament? Doesn't the act need royal assent, so she wouldn't go unless she wanted to?

Due to acts of Parliament I disagree with morally I've lost hope in the democratic system of this country.

Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill

#64

Post by edblarney »

parenthephobia wrote: post #57
edblarney wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In the UK, Parliament is sovereign." The EU courts can declare any bit of UK Parliamentary action 'unconstitutional'. Within the EU, UK Parliament is not quite 'sovereign' :)

Following that to its logical conclusion would mean that EU courts can decide that Parliament isn't actually allowed to decide to invoke article 50. One might wonder why they're even trying to leave. Parliament is in fact sovereign, and always has been. EU court decisions apply in the UK exactly to the extent that the UK government permits them to. e.g. When EU courts rule that UK prisoners have to be allowed to vote…

"Following that to its logical conclusion would mean that EU courts can decide that Parliament isn't actually allowed to decide to invoke article 50. One might wonder why they're even trying to leave."

The ability to succeed from a union doesn't imply 'sovereignty'.

The State of Texas can legally leave the US Federation at any time.

It has been established that the Province of Quebec in Canada could withdraw from the Canadian Confederation.

Scotland and Catalonia could effectively exit their respective federal entities - not by any obvious legal recourse but it surely could happen.

And yet, federal law in each of those regimes applies.

'Following your logic to it's conclusion' - Holyrood, 'L'Assemble National' and the State of Texas are 'sovereign' entities?

Parliament is not sovereign in areas wherein it as agreed to absolve that authority.

It's hard to claim otherwise - there is a EU judiciary that can overrule local laws in more areas that it cannot, certainly the bulk of the important ones.

Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill

#65

Post by edblarney »

jeremysmyth wrote: post #56
edblarney wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In the UK, Parliament is sovereign." The EU courts can declare any bit of UK Parliamentary action 'unconstitutional'. Within the EU, UK Parliament is not quite 'sovereign' :)

The EU courts can declare any bit of UK Parliamentary action 'unconstitutional'. Only in areas where the EU has competence, and these are explicitly enumerated in various treaties; by default, the EU has no competence, so it only has powers to legislate where those powers are explicitly agreed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_conferral http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv%3...

"The EU courts can declare any bit of UK Parliamentary action 'unconstitutional'. Only in areas where the EU has competence,"

Yes. And that's a pretty long list that touches on nearly every level of governance.

In fact - that list is in some ways more pervasive that the Canadian governments ability to intercede in Provincial affairs.

Fun fact: Canada does not even have 'free trade' within it's provinces as the Federal government doesn't effectively have the ability to regulate it. Yet nobody would claim that 'Ontario' is sovereign.

It would seem you've provided evidence that the EU rules over a very wide area of governmental competences, making it rather difficult to claim that the UK remains sovereign.

Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill

#66

Post by EnderMB »

Whether you agree with Brexit or not, I think it's safe to say that the way MP's voted will be looked at with as much scrutiny as those that voted for the Iraq war.

My Labour MP supported Remain, and our area voted strongly to remain in the EU, but she has backed the bill, leading to a lot of angry people. It's a reasonably safe Labour seat, but with increasing numbers of young people moving here, I can see her struggling next election.

Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill

#67

Post by aryehof »

ue_ wrote: post #63
aryehof wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU can do what they want, including jumping up and down and yelling 'unconstitutional'. Any devolvement to Europe can be removed, just like the Queen could be - by acts of Parliament.

How could the Queen be practically removed by Parliament? Doesn't the act need royal assent, so she wouldn't go unless she wanted to? Due to acts of Parliament I disagree with morally I've lost hope in the democratic system of this country.

Royal assent is today nothing more than an allowed tradition. If the people want her gone, there is nothing she or anyone else can do about it. Parliament is sovereign. However, say Parliament did do that between elections outside of the will of the vast majority of the people, then there would surely be an uprising. The will of the people are the final arbiters of the collective actions of their representatives in Parliament.

> "Due to acts of Parliament I disagree with morally I've lost hope in the democratic system of this country"

Democracy doesn't mean you get what you want, or that you can do whatever you want. It means accepting the will of the majority. Your right is to have your say at the next election. Why have you lost hope?

Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill

#68

Post by gambiting »

edblarney wrote: post #64
parenthephobia wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Following that to its logical conclusion would mean that EU courts can decide that Parliament isn't actually allowed to decide to invoke article 50. One might wonder why they're even trying to leave. Parliament is in fact sovereign, and always has been. EU court decisions apply in the UK exactly to the extent that the UK government permits them to. e.g. When EU courts rule that UK prisoners have to be allowed to vote…

"Following that to its logical conclusion would mean that EU courts can decide that Parliament isn't actually allowed to decide to invoke article 50. One might wonder why they're even trying to leave." The ability to succeed from a union doesn't imply 'sovereignty'. The State of Texas can legally leave the US Federation at any time. It has been established that the Province of Quebec in Canada could withdraw from the…

It's not hard, you are just making some extreme mental gymnastics to say what you want to say.

If governor of texas stops following federal law, then US has federal institutions which will arrest such governor. In that sense, Texas is not soverign, because it HAS to follow US federal law. It doesn't get any choice in that matter.

On the other hand, UK can just say they won't follow a certain EU law, and absolutely nothing will happen. EU won't come to arrest Theresa May, or send troops to occupy the house of commons until they agree to follow EU regulations. It's a voluntary union, with zero threat for not following regulations.

Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill

#69

Post by Symmetry »

candiodari wrote: post #17
Symmetry wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US popular opinion says that Congress should raise domestic spending, lower taxes, decrease the deficit, and pay for this by lowering foreign aid to 10% of the budget. Foreign aid is actually 1% of the budget. Politicians should ideally do the right thing or failing that do things that will get them reelected. Roughly 50% of the popular vote supported both the "leave" and stay options and the fraction of the e…

So what you're saying is: 1) obviously the UK was in the EU for the past years 2) people voted against this for 2 reasons. One, they're against the EU. Two, they're not happy with how their own lives changed under 1. 3) We should ignore the second argument and go against the will of the people because ... we're smarter and think that argument is wrong ? Because their lives got worse for other reasons, not this policy…

You misunderstand me. I'm saying that Parliament should do what they think is best regardless of the referendum results. I don't have a strong opinion about Brexit but I have a high opinion of British democracy and I don't want it messed up by referendums on everything the way California's has been.

MPs have a huge advantage in that they have staff and experts willing to answer their questions, that makes a big difference. Direct democracy could work if, for every decision we rounded up everybody and forced them to sit through a day of debate on the issue but not with the way they're currently conducted.

Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill

#70

Post by Daviey »

aryehof wrote: post #67
ue_ wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could the Queen be practically removed by Parliament? Doesn't the act need royal assent, so she wouldn't go unless she wanted to? Due to acts of Parliament I disagree with morally I've lost hope in the democratic system of this country.

Royal assent is today nothing more than an allowed tradition. If the people want her gone, there is nothing she or anyone else can do about it. Parliament is sovereign. However, say Parliament did do that between elections outside of the will of the vast majority of the people, then there would surely be an uprising. The will of the people are the final arbiters of the collective actions of their representatives in P…

The actual act of Royal Assent might be considered tradition... but that doesn't mean there hasn't been significant influence before the Act gets as far as being inked.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/14/secret-papers-roy...

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