This will have huge implications for tech industry in the UK with drawing employees from the EU becoming a lot harder, as a result of uncertainty over visas if nothing else.
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Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill
51–60 of 79 posts
Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill
#52For all the arguments from brexiters about democracy, this vote was yet another travesty. Somehow a narrow 52% majority of votes became 70%+ in Parliament. And of course the few millions of EU citizens living here went completely unrepresented, again.
What a disappointment, this country turned out to be.
Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
In representative democracies, generally the idea is to substitute someone else's judgment for your own. And then if you sufficiently dislike their judgment, vote for someone else next time. So in general, MPs should vote what they believe, and let their constituencies decide whether to return them for it.
Sadly, as we've seen in recent years, in practice this system often does not even resemble having representative government or any real accountability to the electorate. Mostly it actually resembles having a field of candidates where many voters don't much like any of them (with an inevitable "Well you should just run for office yourself then!" retort when this is pointed out), who campaign based on a tiny number of…
In your final paragraph you seem to be saying that because politicians lie, they're obviously incapable of making better decisions than the populous at large. That's a non-sequitur.
Of course politicians lie — they do it consciously and strategically. They do not believe their lies (unless they're also insane). When politicians speak, their aim is to persuade people, not to speak the unvarnished truth. Speaking the plain truth often has results that are directly contrary to their persuasive goals — so they lie, obfuscate, and misdirect. That's been the case for politicians of all stripes for all time and probably always will be.
But that doesn't mean the underlying goals aren't sound. Good leaders lie, bad leaders lie. Lying is not in itself proof of incompetence. Brexit is good or bad independent of whether politicians lie about it. If you understand that, you can assess the arguments of politicians, experts, and everyone else in the proper context.
The problem is that most people just choose the side that tells the lies that conform to their existing predjuduces, seek facts that confirm those predjuduces, and reject facts that contradict them — which is exactly what politicians are exploiting when they engage in persuasive speech, and why it's better that the populous at large don't make critical decisions. Telling the truth doesn't help.
Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the UK, Parliament is sovereign. The Judiciary are independent, and only make rulings based on current law and precedent. Some sought clarification that the current Government (executive branch) could not invoke Brexit without regard to Parliament. The Courts decided that was the case according to current law, precedent and convention. The Government then put it to Parliament that they be given the power, that pas…
"In the UK, Parliament is sovereign." The EU courts can declare any bit of UK Parliamentary action 'unconstitutional'. Within the EU, UK Parliament is not quite 'sovereign' :)
I don't know why someone would down-vote this.
Here it is from the EU [1]
The EU courts and constitution have supremacy over UK Parliament - which is therefore 'not sovereign'.
Technically, you could say that Parliament has to ratify EU laws, which would mean it maintains a degree of sovereignty, but in practice, all softs of rulings made from the EU high courts override UK laws and alter policy.
[1] http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-legal-principles/eu-law...
Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the UK, Parliament is sovereign. The Judiciary are independent, and only make rulings based on current law and precedent. Some sought clarification that the current Government (executive branch) could not invoke Brexit without regard to Parliament. The Courts decided that was the case according to current law, precedent and convention. The Government then put it to Parliament that they be given the power, that pas…
"In the UK, Parliament is sovereign." The EU courts can declare any bit of UK Parliamentary action 'unconstitutional'. Within the EU, UK Parliament is not quite 'sovereign' :)
I don't know why someone would down-vote this.
Here it is from the EU [1]
The EU courts and constitution have supremacy over UK Parliament - which is therefore 'not sovereign'.
Technically, you could say that Parliament has to ratify EU laws, which would mean it maintains a degree of sovereignty, but in practice, all softs of rulings made from the EU high courts override UK laws and alter policy.
[1] http://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-legal-principles/eu-law...
Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the UK, Parliament is sovereign. The Judiciary are independent, and only make rulings based on current law and precedent. Some sought clarification that the current Government (executive branch) could not invoke Brexit without regard to Parliament. The Courts decided that was the case according to current law, precedent and convention. The Government then put it to Parliament that they be given the power, that pas…
"In the UK, Parliament is sovereign." The EU courts can declare any bit of UK Parliamentary action 'unconstitutional'. Within the EU, UK Parliament is not quite 'sovereign' :)
The EU courts can declare any bit of UK Parliamentary action 'unconstitutional'.
Only in areas where the EU has competence, and these are explicitly enumerated in various treaties; by default, the EU has no competence, so it only has powers to legislate where those powers are explicitly agreed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_conferral
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv%3...
Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the UK, Parliament is sovereign. The Judiciary are independent, and only make rulings based on current law and precedent. Some sought clarification that the current Government (executive branch) could not invoke Brexit without regard to Parliament. The Courts decided that was the case according to current law, precedent and convention. The Government then put it to Parliament that they be given the power, that pas…
"In the UK, Parliament is sovereign." The EU courts can declare any bit of UK Parliamentary action 'unconstitutional'. Within the EU, UK Parliament is not quite 'sovereign' :)
Following that to its logical conclusion would mean that EU courts can decide that Parliament isn't actually allowed to decide to invoke article 50. One might wonder why they're even trying to leave.
Parliament is in fact sovereign, and always has been. EU court decisions apply in the UK exactly to the extent that the UK government permits them to. e.g. When EU courts rule that UK prisoners have to be allowed to vote in UK elections, the government ignores that.
When it ascents to unpopular EU laws, it does so voluntarily, after having been involved in drafting them, something people would be wise to consider when imagining that "returning sovereignty" to the government will magically fix everything.
Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sadly, as we've seen in recent years, in practice this system often does not even resemble having representative government or any real accountability to the electorate. Mostly it actually resembles having a field of candidates where many voters don't much like any of them (with an inevitable "Well you should just run for office yourself then!" retort when this is pointed out), who campaign based on a tiny number of…
In your final paragraph you seem to be saying that because politicians lie, they're obviously incapable of making better decisions than the populous at large. That's a non-sequitur. Of course politicians lie — they do it consciously and strategically. They do not believe their lies (unless they're also insane). When politicians speak, their aim is to persuade people, not to speak the unvarnished truth. Speaking the p…
In your final paragraph you seem to be saying that because politicians lie, they're obviously incapable of making better decisions than the populous at large.
That's not quite what I said, but the difference probably doesn't matter.
The principal argument for having a representative democracy rather than a direct one is that normal people cannot realistically be well enough informed on all major issues to make reasonable judgements in their own interests. No-one has enough time to be an expert on everything while still living a normal life and doing a regular job. Instead, normal people delegate decision-making authority to specialist people who do have the time to become better informed and thus have the potential to make better decisions on behalf of everyone else than the normal people could themselves.
Crucially, the normal people are supposed to delegate this power voluntarily, typically by holding elections to find a suitable representative, and this is the ethical basis for some individuals wielding more power than others in society. The point is not for someone to be "in charge" because they are somehow more important or worthy or otherwise better than everyone else. The elected representatives are there to make decisions on behalf of and in the interests of society as a whole, the same way you would consult a specialist lawyer on legal matters or a specialist accountant about your tax affairs.
However, I see little evidence that this is what actually happens in practice. If that's because politicians don't really believe or mean the rubbish they say, I have no sympathy. But in reality, having worked with various government representatives and MPs over the years, I see little evidence that most of them are any more competent or better informed in private than an interested but otherwise average member of the public either. Frequently there may be no suitable representative available to elect, which defeats the entire ethical basis for the system, and even with an apparently suitable candidate at election time, the system is hugely vulnerable to principal-agent conflicts of interest.
So on really big decisions, including the kind of issue where a referendum gets held after a multi-month period of debate that gives ample opportunity for everyone who cares to examine the issues and form their opinions, I see absolutely no ethical basis for making society as a whole defer to a small number of MPs. If people are smart and well-informed enough to choose good MPs in the first place, they're smart and well-informed enough to make a reasonable decision on a specific issue with several months of notice, and having done so, what basis is there for saying any elected representative -- who presumably campaigned on a range of issues and probably got elected with far less support than carries any referendum -- should be empowered to override the will of the people on a specific decision they have made?
Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the UK, Parliament is sovereign. The Judiciary are independent, and only make rulings based on current law and precedent. Some sought clarification that the current Government (executive branch) could not invoke Brexit without regard to Parliament. The Courts decided that was the case according to current law, precedent and convention. The Government then put it to Parliament that they be given the power, that pas…
"In the UK, Parliament is sovereign." The EU courts can declare any bit of UK Parliamentary action 'unconstitutional'. Within the EU, UK Parliament is not quite 'sovereign' :)
The EU can do what they want, including jumping up and down and yelling 'unconstitutional'. Any devolvement to Europe can be removed, just like the Queen could be - by acts of Parliament.
Re: Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
"In the UK, Parliament is sovereign." The EU courts can declare any bit of UK Parliamentary action 'unconstitutional'. Within the EU, UK Parliament is not quite 'sovereign' :)
I don't know why someone would down-vote this. Here it is from the EU [1] The EU courts and constitution have supremacy over UK Parliament - which is therefore 'not sovereign'. Technically, you could say that Parliament has to ratify EU laws, which would mean it maintains a degree of sovereignty, but in practice, all softs of rulings made from the EU high courts override UK laws and alter policy. [1] http://www.europ…
You are downvoted because you are incorrect. The UK Parliament can decide to adhere to EU law, and just as easily take that away. Parliamentary sovereignty which includes the inability to bind or restrict any future Parliament, is the foundation of UK constitutional law - http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/sovereignty/