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Let's Colonize Titan

blogs.scientificamerican.com

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Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#61

Post by pavanky »

seszett wrote: post #7

> It might be possible to live suspended by balloons high in Venus’s atmosphere, but we can’t see how such a habitation would ever be self-sustaining. I think they're a bit too dismissive here. I'm a great fan of the colonisation of Venus, and don't really see a problem with self-sustaining stations in a place with pressures and temperatures naturally fit for humans, with lots of sunlight for energy and lots of CO2.…

Ever since I heard about the proposal for floating cities on Venus, I have been a fan.

There may be higher risks with floating cities initially, but considering the proximity of Venus from Earth, I think we can afford to trial (on robots or Humans for shorter periods of time) more often than say Mars, Europa or Titan.

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#62

Post by Figs »

cstross wrote: post #12

They almost had me until ... On the surface, vast quantities of hydrocarbons in solid and liquid form lie ready to be used for energy. Although the atmosphere lacks oxygen, water ice just below the surface could be used to provide oxygen for breathing and to combust hydrocarbons as fuel. Riiiight. And you're going to get the power to electrolytically split that water into hydrogen and oxygen where, exactly? (Whoever…

I think you're probably right for the most part, but a few other thoughts occurred to me for energy sources not mentioned in the article:

1) Cryovulcanism is suspected to be present on Titan. Maybe it would be possible to tap into geothermal energy there?

2) Given that there's an atmosphere, we could fly balloons there. It might be possible to use high-altitude solar panels to collect energy with some sort of drone balloon swarm. Probably still not all that practical for a dense population, but maybe it could support some sort of sparse drone rancher scenario?

3) Along with wind as you mentioned, there's also the possibility of hydroelectric power as there are rivers, lakes, and rain on Titan. Bearing in mind that the "hydro" there is hydrocarbon sludge, of course.

Yeah, probably not all that practical of a place to live, but fun to think about. :)

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#63

Post by usrusr »

XorNot wrote: post #26
usrusr wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trap it in a giant plastic bag ;) Yaysayers will always find an excuse why something they don't like to be impossible isn't. "But the Wright Brothers!" and all that...

Honestly why not? If you start from the premise of domed cities, then the expansion pattern pretty obviously says glassing in the entire moon is the natural end result of that. The lower-gravity drastically reduces your requirements, and the regolith can be fused into glass and moved a 100m up to form the roof. It also reduces your energy requirements long term because you can use mirrors at the roof-level to reflect…

Well, impacts. I suppose that a vertical hit at interplanetary speeds (or earth-orbit speeds, that high up) will leave a nicely clean hole, but think of the enormous cut made by something coming in on a trajectory that would slingshot close to the moon surface if the bubble wasn't there.

Sure, with technology indistinguishable from magic you could still do it, but i don't known if there would still be much incentive for building the bubble left in that case.

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#64

Post by internaut »

cstross wrote: post #12

They almost had me until ... On the surface, vast quantities of hydrocarbons in solid and liquid form lie ready to be used for energy. Although the atmosphere lacks oxygen, water ice just below the surface could be used to provide oxygen for breathing and to combust hydrocarbons as fuel. Riiiight. And you're going to get the power to electrolytically split that water into hydrogen and oxygen where, exactly? (Whoever…

Elon Musk's ticket to Mars will be less meaningful (if we take the word 'colonization' seriously) unless somebody can stick several thousand people into a hermetic sealed box and they are still alive and thriving after 10 years.

I've been disappointed with the lack of progress in closed loop systems to date. There was Biosphere 2, a great ambitious start. Then a few years ago there was Kamen's Slingshot (outcome unknown). That and the ISS toilet doesn't work properly. It's an un-sexy topic and there hasn't been much progress.

I see houses are heading towards zero energy from the grid, but a magic box which would reliably and cheaply convert black/gray water to high quality drinking water and turn poop and organics into energy bricks to eliminate sewage plants and septic tanks seems like a technology we should have invented a long time ago.

Off topic, I enjoyed 'A Colder War' and was curious about your thoughts on Gene Wolfe.

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#65

Post by 77pt77 »

bitL wrote: post #57

Alright, so currently we can't even predict how bad osteoporosis becomes after a flight to Mars (will astronauts break their hips on the first step out of landing module?), what would radiation exposure outside Earth's magnetosphere do to our bodies, yet we should hurry up to Titan. Currently even human space flight to Mars is a pipe dream, our practical knowledge constructing vehicles capable of reaching Moon and su…

> Overcoming this would require massive undertaking of all humanity, like with LHC

I don't think this is a fair comparison.

The LHC while an amazing feat was not complex, in the sense that it was a well defined and very bounded project.

Interplanetary travel is such an open project that just defining the relevant problems is in itself much harder than the LHC, let alone solving them.

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#66

Post by fnord123 »

w-ll wrote: post #30
JorgeGT wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elon views Mars colonization not as a way to solve lack of habitation space in Earth, but as an off-premises security backup should something terrible happen on Earth.

If we were to invest in building a underwater 'Sealab' on the bottom of some ocean floor, say at least 100m water deep, what kind of cataclysmic event could destroy it. A few dozen of the underwater sea-colonies seams the most practical safety net for humanity that we can do today. I completely for exploring and colonizing space, but we still haven't mapped our own oceans fully. And sadly, I don't think my generation…

>If we were to invest in building a underwater 'Sealab' on the bottom of some ocean floor, say at least 100m water deep, what kind of cataclysmic event could destroy it.

Maybe a sinking ship landing on the dome might be a problem. Or depth charges dropped during war. It would be considerably more difficult to destroy a colony on Mars through physical intervention, intentional or not.

... hacking in and opening all airlocks and evicting all oxygen, like fire suppression systems, on the other hand...

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#67

Post by wowoc »

The article says that the water ice could be used as a source of oxygen, needed to power the combustion of hydrocarbons as fuel. But the oxygen is trapped in water molecules, wouldn't it need to be freed from the hydrogen atoms first (which requires energy)?

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#68

Post by lolive »

It is much easier to send on Titan a bunch of seaweeds, various seeds, etc. And let an ecosystem eventually arise by itself. Of course, we should send some bibles too. So the Titan creatures can learn who/what their mighty creator is. Amen.

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#69

Post by amelius »

bitL wrote: post #57

Alright, so currently we can't even predict how bad osteoporosis becomes after a flight to Mars (will astronauts break their hips on the first step out of landing module?), what would radiation exposure outside Earth's magnetosphere do to our bodies, yet we should hurry up to Titan. Currently even human space flight to Mars is a pipe dream, our practical knowledge constructing vehicles capable of reaching Moon and su…

> Alright, so currently we can't even predict how bad osteoporosis becomes after a flight to Mars

On a trip to Mars, I think gravity is not the problem. We can perfectly generate gravity by e.g. sending two modules instead of one, linking them by rods or cables, and then rotating them on the central axis, while sending them forward.

Changing gravity on Titan, of course, is a different problem, although at least Titan is lighter than Earth.

Re: Let's Colonize Titan

#70

Post by maze-le »

seszett wrote: post #7

> It might be possible to live suspended by balloons high in Venus’s atmosphere, but we can’t see how such a habitation would ever be self-sustaining. I think they're a bit too dismissive here. I'm a great fan of the colonisation of Venus, and don't really see a problem with self-sustaining stations in a place with pressures and temperatures naturally fit for humans, with lots of sunlight for energy and lots of CO2.…

One problem might be the sulfuric acid rains. The SO2-cloud layer is well above the '1 atm'-isobar level (~50km). So we would need building materials that are resistant to sulfuric acid.

But other than that I also find the idea highly fascinating.

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