Live data from Hacker News

Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

arstechnica.com

61–70 of 213 posts

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's starting to get out of hand. I purchased a Toyota last year and magically get updates and phone calls about scheduling maintenance. This means the car is sending data to the mothership without anyone realizing it. They have all your driving habits and likely share it with however they want. You can't stop it and most people don't realize it is even happening.

I've received these as well, but it's always been "Hey, it's been 6 months since your last oil change with us -- come on in!" I could very easily see if you go to the same mechanic and they input your mileage between visits and a system having a reasonable chance of getting scheduled maintenance correct based upon time or average mileage. I've never heard of a company pulling data from a car OTA to do this type of wo…

Many high-end cars have embedded cellular connections, in 2015 Miller and Valasek managed to crack into Jeep's, jump the airgap and take control of the car over the OTA reporting connection: https://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-hig...

No idea if that's the case with Toyota, but it's definitely possible with some high-end cars (most definitely including Teslas which routinely report to the mothership) (incidentally it's fun seeing people drool over teslas then freak out at Firefox or MS telemetry)

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#62
post #3

It's not enforceable, so why demand it Tesla? Nothing more annoying than a company that starts to overstep boundaries.. Stay out of my personal decisions.

it's probably unenforceable if one person is using their autonomous car for ridesharing, but i doubt that's what tesla cares about. If Uber decided to buy a fleet of autonomous Teslas and use them to operate an autonomous taxi service, instead of building their own autonomous car, Tesla could get that shut down pretty easily with these terms. And i'm guessing that's what they're targeting.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#63

How would this work? "Dear Customer - your usage patterns shows that you are using your car for ride sharing revenue. Please stop it." "Dear Customer - Second warning." "Dear Customer - we have disabled important safety updates for your car, because it looks like you are ride sharing for profit. You might be a real estate agent with irregular driving patterns for legitimate reasons but we cannot confirm that. Sucks t…

It also means that if you get in trouble for using Uber in a place where it's forbidden (like the Taxi lobby is friends with the local dictator or something) then Tesla won't get in trouble for being an "accessory" to the crime.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#64

Surely this is to stop Uber, Lyft etc from buying a fleet of the things for their business use, rather than targeting individual drivers specifically (though they're happy to stop that too).

...bearing in mind that Tesla AFAIAA is supposed to be selling more moderately priced cars in the near future

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#65

The erosion of the concept of "ownership" continues. Traditionally, goods are subject to the first sale doctrine--once I buy a shirt, it's my property, and if I want to sell or rent it, I can. It's mine. But software is licensed. When I buy a piece of software, I'm actually paying for a limited and revokable right to use someone else's property. And now companies are putting software into more and more goods. As soft…

It's very important to realize that this is a problem that our generation will have to fix, or it will never be fixed. To us, this seems completely unnatural, because we've spent so many years in a world where this type of tech could be truly "owned." However, future generations born in the world of today will be totally accustomed to renting/licensing everything. They won't have the same fiery indignation that we do when told what they can and can't do with their car, and so they won't fight as hard (or at all). This is how culture changes over time.

It's up to us.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#66

The erosion of the concept of "ownership" continues. Traditionally, goods are subject to the first sale doctrine--once I buy a shirt, it's my property, and if I want to sell or rent it, I can. It's mine. But software is licensed. When I buy a piece of software, I'm actually paying for a limited and revokable right to use someone else's property. And now companies are putting software into more and more goods. As soft…

I agree, but How do we handle software ownership? If I sell you a piece of software that you now own, you can go and resell copies of that software to whoever you want. What is the best way to handle that?

That is already solved, and it's called copyright: if you're not the copyright holder, you are not allowed to sell/rent other copies of the software. What you do with the copy you originally obtained, is (should be) covered by the first sale doctrine.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#67

A venn diagram with two circles that don't intersect: "Can afford a Tesla" "Wants to drive for Uber"

I spent a few weeks in Hong Kong recently and the vast majority of my UberBLACK Sedans were Tesla Model S, many with the insane mode / ludicrous mode / whatever it's called that unlocks the rapid acceleration. They were more than happy to demonstrate it too, which was fun.

Discussing the sustainability, they noted that after the purchase of the car, running costs were effectively free. Due to subsidies provided by the government, there is no refuelling charge, and as an electric car, it's not subject to emissions laws e.g. requirement to turn your car off if stationary for more than 2 mins, not allowed to be stationary for more than 2 minutes with air conditioning turned on.

Two of the drivers I spoke to intended to buy more Teslas for their family for this reason, one already had another one on order.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#68

The erosion of the concept of "ownership" continues. Traditionally, goods are subject to the first sale doctrine--once I buy a shirt, it's my property, and if I want to sell or rent it, I can. It's mine. But software is licensed. When I buy a piece of software, I'm actually paying for a limited and revokable right to use someone else's property. And now companies are putting software into more and more goods. As soft…

I agree, but How do we handle software ownership? If I sell you a piece of software that you now own, you can go and resell copies of that software to whoever you want. What is the best way to handle that?

We could start by just going back to the original spirit of copyright: it's there to prevent multiplication, not to be invoked as a legal technicality to restrict how someone can use and enjoy a creative work once they already acquired a legitimate copy.

The idea that copyright law should prevent things like format shifting or making personal back-up copies of a song or movie someone already paid for is absurd to me. It's just the legal version of scope creep.

The idea that copyright law should allow people who sell software to impose arbitrary restrictions on how it may be used or whether that copy can subsequently be passed on to someone else or any other unrelated conditions for that matter, all because of technicalities about making transient copies when software is installed on a device or executed from RAM, is just the worst kind of legal sophistry.

I think there are reasonable arguments about alternative business models, particularly permanent sales vs. some sort of temporary rental arrangement. There's a danger here that for pure knowledge works we may shift towards a system where everyone has to rent everything, but I think it's too early to say that the market can't sort this one out on its own and the success of services like Netflix and Spotify suggests that other models can be useful as well.

In a some very limited cases, I think there are also valid reasons to restrict what the general public are allowed to do with software, but these are mostly regulatory issues where we already have similar concerns with physical devices, such as preventing someone who doesn't know what they're doing from bringing down a communications network by transmitting noise and effectively DoS attacking everyone else. But IMHO these cases should invariably be addressed with their own suitable laws or regulations, issued by the relevant government authorities for the common good, not by the original developers subverting the principle of copyright for their own purposes.

Otherwise, for a physical product that only includes software incidentally anyway, I just don't see any ethical basis for restricting what the customer can do with it just because of the software element, and abusing copyright law for that purpose just shows how broken copyright law has become.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#69
post #56
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do not want a company telling me how to use my product that I paid for. I'm not defending Tesla here, I just want to draw an analogy. You can't go a store, buy a DVD for $15 and then charge tickets to project to an audience. You need a different, more expensive license for that. The same applies to music and software, even if it is embedded firmware in a car.

> You can't go a store, buy a DVD for $15 and then charge tickets to project to an audience. Maybe this model is actually bad because it circumvents the first sale doctrine, and we need to make this kind of restriction one illegal (haha, in my dreams).

I'm not defending the model, I'm just saying how it is now.

Re: Revenue from self-driving Teslas only allowed through the Tesla Network

#70

What will Tesla do if you do it anyway? Disable your $100k car? Does that hold up in court? What did you buy for $100k?

They could easily disable the autonomous functions. Maybe even refund a portion of the license fee.

Who knows what they will choose to do.

Post reply on HN