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From Syria to Sweden – 200 voices on escaping the war

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Re: From Syria to Sweden – 200 voices on escaping the war

#61

Post by jazzyk »

petriw wrote: post #60
kbart wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistics is easily tweaked or faked. There are already many cases of police in Germany and Sweden miss-reporting or covering up sexual offences by immigrants. 1. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-03/german-coverup-scan... 2. http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-only-germany-that... 3. http://dailycaller.com/2016/04/08/german-cops-we-were-ordere...

Statistics can never simply be read from a police database or similar. It takes serious work by good researchers to compile the data and interpret it. This is also why you can't compare many crime statistics between countries, rape being a fairly typical one. The simple truth is that up until now no one actually cared and that is why it went unreported. Heck, the new years eve sexual offences will probably disappear…

>It takes serious work by good researchers to compile the data and interpret it

Ah, yes. The data need to be "seasonally adjusted" by high priests of the state, so that we, uneducated peons get the "appropriate" message.

Do you even realize how elitist your statement is? Sexual offence data is not rocket science, a lot of people can understand it quite well.

In Sweden's case, it would also help if the race/nationality of the attacker was disclosed (which, I heard, is not allowed in Sweden).

Re: From Syria to Sweden – 200 voices on escaping the war

#62

Post by gambiting »

jazzyk wrote: post #61
petriw wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistics can never simply be read from a police database or similar. It takes serious work by good researchers to compile the data and interpret it. This is also why you can't compare many crime statistics between countries, rape being a fairly typical one. The simple truth is that up until now no one actually cared and that is why it went unreported. Heck, the new years eve sexual offences will probably disappear…

>It takes serious work by good researchers to compile the data and interpret it Ah, yes. The data need to be "seasonally adjusted" by high priests of the state, so that we, uneducated peons get the "appropriate" message. Do you even realize how elitist your statement is? Sexual offence data is not rocket science, a lot of people can understand it quite well. In Sweden's case, it would also help if the race/nationalit…

>>Sexual offence data is not rocket science

It is though. The definition of sexual offence changes between countries. Simplest example being that in some places public urination is a sexual offence, despite not having anything to do with sex. And because that definition is not consistent between countries, it cannot be reasonably compared.

>>n Sweden's case, it would also help if the race/nationality of the attacker was disclosed

And why would it be? What for? A rapist is a rapist, regardless of their nationality.

You sound like a tinfoil hat aficionado to me, sorry.

Re: From Syria to Sweden – 200 voices on escaping the war

#63

Post by petriw »

Yetanfou wrote: post #57
petriw wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have relatives living in the USA and the news they see from Sweden seems to make them think Sweden is descending into chaos. Their imagination had run quite wild.

Parts of Sweden are descending into chaos, some parts (Rosengård in Malmö. Biskopsgården in Göteborg, Järva in Stockholm, etc - these are the 'no-go zones') already have. The news you get to see in the US and elsewhere often comes from these areas. Elsewhere in Sweden things are more like they used to be, although the problem with 'utanförskapsområder' (areas where a parallel society takes shape, areas which are no l…

My grandma actually lives in Biskopsgården, I go there often.

Would I let my children go to school in Sjumilaskolan? Not if I could avoid it. But I also don't worry that my grandma will be harassed by the youths or the niqab ladies. Because she hasn't been.

The failure in these areas is obviously a huge problem and the state has fallen short in dealing with the issues. Hopefully the court system will take the hint and start helping the police but that's for the future to tell...

But I also remember the same kind of areas from 20-30 years ago. Where the social services put the drug addicts and alcoholics, where several cars would randomly get trashed because someone had a party, where the local nazi gang would show up to beat up an immigrant because of some rumor etc. These areas are not a new problem. I guess the big difference is they've gone from knives to guns. These are the areas where the most vulnerable in society live and everyone who can leave.

Re: From Syria to Sweden – 200 voices on escaping the war

#64

Post by petriw »

nostromo123 wrote: post #46
kartan wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should Europe feel responsible for these people? Because they are human beings. I think than that's more than enough. BTW Europe has a lot of really big problems with Banks. And that has a lot bigger impact that anything else in our economy. That's also something interesting to talk about.

"Because they are human beings" is a naive answer. My parents have worked 45 years as teachers in Romania, and now they get the equivalent of 300$ monthly combined in pension money. Romania is also not such a cheap country as you'd think. Now, seeing as how even non-refugee migrants from typical holiday countries in North Africa get lots more money than that per month in the German welfare system, we have two options…

Germany is free to spend their own money how they see fit. For example, by sending money to Romania via the EU budget.

Perhaps Germany should instead focus on the pensioners in their country who have worked hard for 45 years and now live on the minimum pension.

Re: From Syria to Sweden – 200 voices on escaping the war

#65

Post by jazzyk »

gambiting wrote: post #62
jazzyk wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It takes serious work by good researchers to compile the data and interpret it Ah, yes. The data need to be "seasonally adjusted" by high priests of the state, so that we, uneducated peons get the "appropriate" message. Do you even realize how elitist your statement is? Sexual offence data is not rocket science, a lot of people can understand it quite well. In Sweden's case, it would also help if the race/nationalit…

>>Sexual offence data is not rocket science It is though. The definition of sexual offence changes between countries. Simplest example being that in some places public urination is a sexual offence, despite not having anything to do with sex. And because that definition is not consistent between countries, it cannot be reasonably compared. >>n Sweden's case, it would also help if the race/nationality of the attacker…

>public urination is a sexual offence

You think people are idiots and can't distinguish between urination and groping?

>And why would it be? What for? A rapist is a rapist, regardless of their nationality

In the context of countries which accepted a lot of immigrants, it is to either confirm or dispel the claims that the attackers are mostly refugees from the Middle East.

>You sound like a tinfoil hat aficionado to me, sorry.

Please refrain from ad hominem attacks - it is against HN rules.

I simply want to learn what has caused the increase of rapes. The fact the the police (and the press) in Sweden were, in many cases, instructed not to report the race/nationality of attackers - to me - constitutes censorship.

Re: From Syria to Sweden – 200 voices on escaping the war

#66

Post by gambiting »

jazzyk wrote: post #65
gambiting wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Sexual offence data is not rocket science It is though. The definition of sexual offence changes between countries. Simplest example being that in some places public urination is a sexual offence, despite not having anything to do with sex. And because that definition is not consistent between countries, it cannot be reasonably compared. >>n Sweden's case, it would also help if the race/nationality of the attacker…

>public urination is a sexual offence You think people are idiots and can't distinguish between urination and groping? >And why would it be? What for? A rapist is a rapist, regardless of their nationality In the context of countries which accepted a lot of immigrants, it is to either confirm or dispel the claims that the attackers are mostly refugees from the Middle East. >You sound like a tinfoil hat aficionado to m…

>>You think people are idiots and can't distinguish between urination and groping?

Well clearly so, because that's exactly how sex offender lists work in some countries, where there is no distinction made whatsoever.

>>In the context of countries which accepted a lot of immigrants, it is to either confirm or dispel the claims that the attackers are mostly refugees from the Middle East.

And my point is, what good does it do to anyone? Criminals should be persecuted with the same severity, regardless of where they are from.

Let's say that data shows that middle eastern refugees don't rape more than native citizens. I'm almost certain such raport would be dismissed by some(look two comments above) as "doctored" or "prepared" by the government that doesn't want people to know the "truth".

Or let's say that they rape more - What do you want to do in that case? Write special laws for them? In US, most criminals are black, but you should know very well that it's both because the are marginalized by the society and punished harder by the law enforcement, and not because they are black.

That's why I insist that we treat all criminals as criminals, not as "native criminals" and "middle eastern" criminals etc. There's just no benefit, except maybe feeding fear against them.

>>Please refrain from ad hominem attacks - it is against HN rules.

You are right, my apologies.

Re: From Syria to Sweden – 200 voices on escaping the war

#67

Post by barpet »

petriw wrote: post #64
nostromo123 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Because they are human beings" is a naive answer. My parents have worked 45 years as teachers in Romania, and now they get the equivalent of 300$ monthly combined in pension money. Romania is also not such a cheap country as you'd think. Now, seeing as how even non-refugee migrants from typical holiday countries in North Africa get lots more money than that per month in the German welfare system, we have two options…

Germany is free to spend their own money how they see fit. For example, by sending money to Romania via the EU budget. Perhaps Germany should instead focus on the pensioners in their country who have worked hard for 45 years and now live on the minimum pension.

Wow...are you implying Romania is just leeching off of the EU (Germany?) ? You are seriously thinking that Germany is the good guy here helping ungrateful Romania ?

Germany has benefitted way more from Romania than Romania has ever benefitted from German's (EU's) money. Not only the german companies disrupted the economy of Romania (and other weak players), not only they imposed an enormous brain drain there but also have never ever paid as much money as they have take out of Romania (and others) during WW2.

Re: From Syria to Sweden – 200 voices on escaping the war

#68

Post by jazzyk »

gambiting wrote: post #66
jazzyk wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>public urination is a sexual offence You think people are idiots and can't distinguish between urination and groping? >And why would it be? What for? A rapist is a rapist, regardless of their nationality In the context of countries which accepted a lot of immigrants, it is to either confirm or dispel the claims that the attackers are mostly refugees from the Middle East. >You sound like a tinfoil hat aficionado to m…

>>You think people are idiots and can't distinguish between urination and groping? Well clearly so, because that's exactly how sex offender lists work in some countries, where there is no distinction made whatsoever. >>In the context of countries which accepted a lot of immigrants, it is to either confirm or dispel the claims that the attackers are mostly refugees from the Middle East. And my point is, what good does…

>There's just no benefit, except maybe feeding fear against them.

There is already enough fear (justified or not). No data -> no diagnosis -> no remedy -> even more tensions, fear/hate, etc.

Re: From Syria to Sweden – 200 voices on escaping the war

#69

Post by Yetanfou »

petriw wrote: post #63
Yetanfou wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parts of Sweden are descending into chaos, some parts (Rosengård in Malmö. Biskopsgården in Göteborg, Järva in Stockholm, etc - these are the 'no-go zones') already have. The news you get to see in the US and elsewhere often comes from these areas. Elsewhere in Sweden things are more like they used to be, although the problem with 'utanförskapsområder' (areas where a parallel society takes shape, areas which are no l…

My grandma actually lives in Biskopsgården, I go there often. Would I let my children go to school in Sjumilaskolan? Not if I could avoid it. But I also don't worry that my grandma will be harassed by the youths or the niqab ladies. Because she hasn't been. The failure in these areas is obviously a huge problem and the state has fallen short in dealing with the issues. Hopefully the court system will take the hint an…

There is also the difference of the scale of the problem, coupled with the polarisation in the media which has led to knee-jerk reactions when it comes to reporting on the issues - think of the way Dagens Nyheter (one of the bigger daily newspapers in Sweden) handled - or should I say covered up - the sexual abuse going on at the 'We are Sthlm' festivals. They sat on this news for 5 months until it was no longer tenable to do so due to the same kind of abuse happening in Cologne and elsewhere.

Think also of the infamous 'Code 291' used by the police for crimes where migrants are involved and the orders to keep these events out of the news 'because it might favour SD [1]'. This polarisation has led to an large reduction in trust in police and the justice department, as well as an all-time low trust level for journalists. The police should be politically neutral, just like the state media. Coloured reporting by the media is one thing, but a police force which acts out of political intent is an order of magnitude worse and something which is normally associated with failed states. Seen in that light the current police chief's clearly political stance is not just unfortunate but a real destabilising factor in Swedish society.

[1] SD or Sweden Democrats is a political party which wants to change the Swedish stance on migration, this party is shunned by all other parties and by most of the media while it averages around 20% of all votes.

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