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How to Crash Systemd in One Command

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Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#61

Post by 5ilv3r »

bjourne wrote: post #52
korethr wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, linux is missing basic functionality other os's offer, and systemd is showing up and trying to fill in those blanks. I'm curious what functionality other OSes had that Linux did not before systemd came along. It seems to me that it has been subsuming functions of other systems on Linux that were already present, as opposed to offering anything new. Socket activation? inetd/xinetd. Timed start of programs?…

> I'm curious what functionality other OSes had that Linux did not before systemd came along. Uniform daemon/service handling. Just look at the scripts in /etc/init.d (or wherever they are located in your particular SysV init setup). It's a total mess. The rest of what systemd offers I can't comment on because I'm not familiar with it. But it is clear to me that systemd's declarative .service files are a billion time…

You refuse to look, and thus have clarity. Dude that is not a good argument.

What is not uniform about the previous service handling implementation in debian?

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#62

Post by jude- »

djsumdog wrote: post #37
justin_vanw wrote: post #3

It seems like it is quite fashionable to hate on systemd, and it seems like systemd is kindof a piece of crap - in some ways. However, linux is missing basic functionality other os's offer, and systemd is showing up and trying to fill in those blanks. This is open source, if you don't like systemd, if you think it's crap, if you think there are obviously better ways to do it, well, what are you waiting for then? Syst…

We don't live in the open source world of the 1990s. People don't make this stuff in their basements. What was a community of devs that made things in their own time has turned into a huge industry supported system of semi-bullshit sharing. The OSS devs of the 90s wanted open source end products: a GIMP that could replace Photoshop. A blender that could replace 3D Studio. Today we mostly have OSS middleware. As the o…

Uselessd has been abandoned, as your link points out. The rationale [1] is, predictably, that "mangling systemd into something a bit saner turned out to be frustrating" and it was "a fool's errand" to have tried.

[1] https://forums.darknedgy.net/viewtopic.php?id=4963

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#63

Post by regularfry »

bjourne wrote: post #52
korethr wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, linux is missing basic functionality other os's offer, and systemd is showing up and trying to fill in those blanks. I'm curious what functionality other OSes had that Linux did not before systemd came along. It seems to me that it has been subsuming functions of other systems on Linux that were already present, as opposed to offering anything new. Socket activation? inetd/xinetd. Timed start of programs?…

> I'm curious what functionality other OSes had that Linux did not before systemd came along. Uniform daemon/service handling. Just look at the scripts in /etc/init.d (or wherever they are located in your particular SysV init setup). It's a total mess. The rest of what systemd offers I can't comment on because I'm not familiar with it. But it is clear to me that systemd's declarative .service files are a billion time…

It might be better than the shell scripts that were there. It's not better than the shell scripts that could have been there.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#64

Post by wmf »

djsumdog wrote: post #37
justin_vanw wrote: post #3

It seems like it is quite fashionable to hate on systemd, and it seems like systemd is kindof a piece of crap - in some ways. However, linux is missing basic functionality other os's offer, and systemd is showing up and trying to fill in those blanks. This is open source, if you don't like systemd, if you think it's crap, if you think there are obviously better ways to do it, well, what are you waiting for then? Syst…

We don't live in the open source world of the 1990s. People don't make this stuff in their basements. What was a community of devs that made things in their own time has turned into a huge industry supported system of semi-bullshit sharing. The OSS devs of the 90s wanted open source end products: a GIMP that could replace Photoshop. A blender that could replace 3D Studio. Today we mostly have OSS middleware. As the o…

Is Red Hat funding over 50% of Linux development? If systemd was so bad it seems like maybe our corporate overlords like IBM, Google, Intel, or Canonical could have spoken up or even banded together to compete with it, but they didn't.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#65

Post by justin_vanw »

sp332 wrote: post #60
bjourne wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm curious what functionality other OSes had that Linux did not before systemd came along. Uniform daemon/service handling. Just look at the scripts in /etc/init.d (or wherever they are located in your particular SysV init setup). It's a total mess. The rest of what systemd offers I can't comment on because I'm not familiar with it. But it is clear to me that systemd's declarative .service files are a billion time…

Didn't upstart and launchd cover this before systemd?

I don't know launchd, but upstart was a piece of crap that didn't even implement it's own documented functionality.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#66

Post by justin_vanw »

regularfry wrote: post #63
bjourne wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm curious what functionality other OSes had that Linux did not before systemd came along. Uniform daemon/service handling. Just look at the scripts in /etc/init.d (or wherever they are located in your particular SysV init setup). It's a total mess. The rest of what systemd offers I can't comment on because I'm not familiar with it. But it is clear to me that systemd's declarative .service files are a billion time…

It might be better than the shell scripts that were there. It's not better than the shell scripts that could have been there.

Since shell scripts are Turing complete...

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#67

Post by djsumdog »

rcarmo wrote: post #31

First they came for PID 1, and we were silent. Oh, wait, we weren't. But although I don't miss the rickety init scripts, I've grown more and more worried about stuff like this, enough to ponder replacements (in Go or Python, which seem to be generally acceptable for systems software these days). Ignoring for the moment the usual biases against Python, how feasible/how much support would it be/have to build something…

I've been working at a Docker shop for a while and I have a feeling it will be the future for running services. It makes systemd somewhat irrelevant.

There are still a lot of issues I've had with Docker, which I won't go into. It also can't replace everything running on your Linux system. But it's a neat idea and big players use it in production for huge workloads.

Now the whole AWS-containers, docker-machine, swarm, mesos, coreos, kubernetes thing is a cluster fuck of choices .. but you have choices. And unlike running an Ansible script on some provides base image (which is totally different from Rackspace, Linode, etc.), you are guaranteed your container will work on any docker engine with little modification (your orchestration files may change though).

I have a feeling, for better or worse, containers will be the future and will stick around long after systemd hopefully dies.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#68

Post by regularfry »

geofft wrote: post #18
lasermike026 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Unix philosophy: Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Systemd doesn't observe the Unix philosophy and that bothers many people.

It's baffling to see people insist that that's the UNIX philosophy when the UNIX philosophy has always been about monolithic kernels over microkernels, so "do one thing" is out the window, and about worse-is-better over do-the-right-thing ( https://www.dreamsongs.com/RiseOfWorseIsBetter.html ), so "do it well" is out the window. And the userspace tools don't follow this either. Quoting http://prog21.dadgum.com/139.ht…

Because that specific thing is crufty and bad, and now can't be fixed for back-compat reasons. Neither of these are justifications for introducing more crufty badness.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#69

Post by bitmapbrother »

>Despite the banality, the bug is serious, as it allows any local user to trivially perform a denial-of-service attack against a critical system component.

Is it really that serious of a bug? You have to be a local user in order to execute it. Are other OS's somehow resilient to the actions of local user to degrade the OS?

>The Linux ecosystem has fallen behind other operating systems in writing secure and robust software. While Microsoft was hardening Windows and Apple was developing iOS, open source software became complacent.

He must be unaware of the numerous patches Microsoft and Apple issue on a regular basis to fix their "secure and robust software".

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#70

Post by lake99 »

packetized wrote: post #44

Erm, this does not actually seem to work on Centos7, running systemd-219-19.el7_2.13. Even tried it as root inside of a sandbox - nothing.

It's the same on Archlinux, systemd-231. Nothing happened. I was able to start and stop a couple of services as quickly as before.
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