Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How to Crash Systemd in One Command

agwa.name

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 193 posts

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#31

Post by rcarmo »

First they came for PID 1, and we were silent.

Oh, wait, we weren't. But although I don't miss the rickety init scripts, I've grown more and more worried about stuff like this, enough to ponder replacements (in Go or Python, which seem to be generally acceptable for systems software these days).

Ignoring for the moment the usual biases against Python, how feasible/how much support would it be/have to build something to replace systemd (by having PID 1 do the minimum possible, in C, and having the rest done with Python)?

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#32

Post by brainspider »

justin_vanw wrote: post #3

It seems like it is quite fashionable to hate on systemd, and it seems like systemd is kindof a piece of crap - in some ways. However, linux is missing basic functionality other os's offer, and systemd is showing up and trying to fill in those blanks. This is open source, if you don't like systemd, if you think it's crap, if you think there are obviously better ways to do it, well, what are you waiting for then? Syst…

> However, linux is missing basic functionality other os's offer

Could you please elaborate on what some of those are?

> systemd is showing up and trying to fill in those blanks

I haven't really kept on top of all systemd releases, but all I can see is them replacing things that already exist, just doing them in a different way.

I agree the init system replacement was necessary, but I'm struggling to understand why and how it extended to trying to extinguish and replace every core function of the operating system ecosystem.

That's rubbing a lot of people the wrong way, especially as mentioned in the article, those who adhere to the unix philosophy of do one thing and do it right.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#33

Post by korethr »

justin_vanw wrote: post #3

It seems like it is quite fashionable to hate on systemd, and it seems like systemd is kindof a piece of crap - in some ways. However, linux is missing basic functionality other os's offer, and systemd is showing up and trying to fill in those blanks. This is open source, if you don't like systemd, if you think it's crap, if you think there are obviously better ways to do it, well, what are you waiting for then? Syst…

> However, linux is missing basic functionality other os's offer, and systemd is showing up and trying to fill in those blanks.

I'm curious what functionality other OSes had that Linux did not before systemd came along. It seems to me that it has been subsuming functions of other systems on Linux that were already present, as opposed to offering anything new.

Socket activation? inetd/xinetd. Timed start of programs? Cron and At Logging? rsyslog/syslog-ng/etc. DNS? -- dnsmasq, powerdns, bind, etc.

Honestly, I think if system had stopped at doing init, and focused solely on that and doing the best damned possible job of it, there'd be less hate. I think what's pissing off a lot of the systemd haters is the scope creep of the project has undergone. I was personally fine with the idea of systemd when all it was promising was init and service management. But then oh, were going to take over /dev, and cron and logging, and logins and DNS and (to be determined). Ahh, thanks, but no thanks.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#34

Post by 5ilv3r »

qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #24
mSparks wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've complained a few times that systemd haters havent explained the hate. having read this post I'd say a slightly less succinct but infinitely more informative version would be > "Systemd is defective by design because they totally disregard the fail-safe by design rules"

Yes. I wish people would explain their hatred. I understand that there are valid reasons to hate systemd, which is why I avoid it like the plague. But so many people get sucked in by the initial usefulness, and don't see the problems lurking beneath the surface.

Binary only logs was enough for me to hate it.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#35

Post by qwertyuiop924 »

zdw wrote: post #25
qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you forgot http://skarnet.org/software/s6/

Ah, forgot to list that... he's got this great page too: http://skarnet.org/software/skalibs/djblegacy.html

Heh. Yeah. I just wrote a comment on your post of that about how I had posted http://skarnet.org/software/execline/. Which is a cool thing in its own right.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#36

Post by fapjacks »

qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #24
mSparks wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've complained a few times that systemd haters havent explained the hate. having read this post I'd say a slightly less succinct but infinitely more informative version would be > "Systemd is defective by design because they totally disregard the fail-safe by design rules"

Yes. I wish people would explain their hatred. I understand that there are valid reasons to hate systemd, which is why I avoid it like the plague. But so many people get sucked in by the initial usefulness, and don't see the problems lurking beneath the surface.

Yes, a large part of which is the process behind systemd. You're adopting more than just software when you adopt software, and I think investigating what the systemd developers are like is a worthy exercise -- in particular how they approach bugs. I think most people would be surprised to learn what that is like.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#37

Post by djsumdog »

justin_vanw wrote: post #3

It seems like it is quite fashionable to hate on systemd, and it seems like systemd is kindof a piece of crap - in some ways. However, linux is missing basic functionality other os's offer, and systemd is showing up and trying to fill in those blanks. This is open source, if you don't like systemd, if you think it's crap, if you think there are obviously better ways to do it, well, what are you waiting for then? Syst…

We don't live in the open source world of the 1990s. People don't make this stuff in their basements. What was a community of devs that made things in their own time has turned into a huge industry supported system of semi-bullshit sharing. The OSS devs of the 90s wanted open source end products: a GIMP that could replace Photoshop. A blender that could replace 3D Studio. Today we mostly have OSS middleware.

As the other comments have stated, there have been several systemd drop in attempts, such as this one:

http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/

But maintaining them is terribly difficult when Redhat is pouring money into people to work on it full-time. There are lots of systemd-free forks, including ones for Debian and Arch. But you need a large user base to continue to use these forks so other people will be encouraged to support them. Money, donations and good ole kudos help too.

TL;DR we don't live in the open source world you think we do.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#38

Post by qwertyuiop924 »

fapjacks wrote: post #36
qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I wish people would explain their hatred. I understand that there are valid reasons to hate systemd, which is why I avoid it like the plague. But so many people get sucked in by the initial usefulness, and don't see the problems lurking beneath the surface.

Yes, a large part of which is the process behind systemd. You're adopting more than just software when you adopt software, and I think investigating what the systemd developers are like is a worthy exercise -- in particular how they approach bugs. I think most people would be surprised to learn what that is like.

Ah, yes: When is a bug not a bug? According to the systemd developers, it's when we don't encounter it on our personal machines.

Re: How to Crash Systemd in One Command

#39

Post by qwertyuiop924 »

5ilv3r wrote: post #34
qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I wish people would explain their hatred. I understand that there are valid reasons to hate systemd, which is why I avoid it like the plague. But so many people get sucked in by the initial usefulness, and don't see the problems lurking beneath the surface.

Binary only logs was enough for me to hate it.

That's it? Man that's just the start...
Post reply on HN