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Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights

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Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights

#61

Post by Idontagree »

TheLarch wrote: post #37
gamblor956 wrote: post #18

Always used to see a guy cycling on my commute home. He'd roll through every stop sign and most traffic signals. (He explained one day that it "saved energy" for him to keep going...even though he cycled as "exercise...") I don't see him anymore. One day last year, he rolled through a red light in Koreatown, right into a truck which had the right of way. He was thrown from his bike about 20 feet and died from blunt f…

It is dangerous. However, when you consider the economic, environmental, and health advantages it looks better. See http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/06/13/bicycling-the-safe... . I feel notably worse inside a week when I stop cycling. You know what the worst part of cycling is? The endless noise and pollution from cars. Cars are a scourge. It is no wonder why drivers are so angry all the time. Who in their right m…

I'm all for acceptable public transportation to be the norm, but until then cars work fine. Roads also weren't originally built for bikes. I actually don't know how many of the bigger cities look now, and I imagine most of them have bike lanes, but places like where I live have bikers just taking the right lane because there's no extra space. There also isn't enough space to expand the road to make room for both of us. Ultimately they're a huge hazard because they're difficult to see and hear. I really don't think they should ever mix cars and bikes. Or at least not in high capacity areas. Also you're desire to exercise is completely your own, I'm glad you enjoy it, but it's a personal choice.

Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights

#62

Post by cmyr »

kordless wrote: post #47
ddlatham wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a sad anecdote. It doesn't seem to address the argument or actual safety data presented in the article.

It's a data point and was used as such. The effects of breaking moving vehicle laws can be rationalized away when the mass of the vehicle moving is low. That doesn't preclude other incidences, such as this one, where someone who's job it is to drive a truck has to wrangle with the fact they killed someone. They guy who died could give two shits about the situation. I saw a cyclist roll through a pedestrian crossing w…

Here's an explanation from a physics professor (cited in the original article) that might help explain what "save energy" means. http://nacto.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Fajans-J.-and-M....

In case you can't be bothered to read this either:

> He also calculated that a cyclist who rolls through a stop at five miles per hour instead of stopping fully needs to use 25 percent less energy to get back to full speed.

Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights

#63

Post by hermannj314 »

truantbuick wrote: post #34

Cyclist commuter here. Red lights should be red lights to everybody. However, Idaho stops are the way future. It's just doesn't make sense to apply the same "come to a complete stop" standard to cyclists. They're traveling at a much lower speed and have much less ability to accelerate. The extra time it takes to come to a complete stop (which means finding your balance at a stand still), and then remounting the bike…

Any advice for bicycle commuters approaching a red light on a rarely-used side road that is triggered entirely by a weight sensor? I took your advice once ('red lights are red for everybody') and sat their for 5 minutes waiting until another car pulled up to trigger to weight sensor and the light changed in seconds.

Now I just go. I treat that particular red light like a stop sign. I don't lose any sleep over it. And most cops where I live are pretty forgiving to bicyclists.

Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights

#64

Post by dx034 »

mc32 wrote: post #38

I'm curious about what Germans think of this, since people look a pedestrian askance if you don't wait for the light. As an occasional cyclist I'm of two minds. On the one hand, having too many stop signs along a roadway gets annoying so mentally one wants to simply slow down and look and if no cars have the right of way at the time, go through. The danger is that this behavior gets modified to a default of riding th…

In Germany you can lose your driver's license quickly if you ignore red lights as a cyclists. It's enforced a lot, especially in cities with a high percentage of cyclists. And you'll get frequent comments by others, but even more as a pedestrian than as a cyclist.

Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights

#65

Post by Idontagree »

bobowzki wrote: post #49
gamblor956 wrote: post #18

Always used to see a guy cycling on my commute home. He'd roll through every stop sign and most traffic signals. (He explained one day that it "saved energy" for him to keep going...even though he cycled as "exercise...") I don't see him anymore. One day last year, he rolled through a red light in Koreatown, right into a truck which had the right of way. He was thrown from his bike about 20 feet and died from blunt f…

Why do you say "exercise" with quotation?

Because he's making a joke about the cycler exercising and trying to save energy...

Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights

#66

Post by vlehto »

brudgers wrote: post #21

This is a half measure. What cyclists need is access to limited access, pedestrian free, well maintained roadways. https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/effective-cycling-0

I haven't read the book, but second the sentiment.

Few death traps on my commute take more time and energy than any lights. The one spot where old railway was transformed into bike lane is sweet. You can travel half the city without constantly worrying about dying.

Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights

#67

Post by TheLarch »

anexprogrammer wrote: post #52
TheLarch wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am surprised to hear you assert that there is no time saving to be had in running red lights. In my opinion it's just too bad for annoyed drivers. They are welcome to join us. What angry drivers usually don't get is that the equation is much different for cyclists. Our capacity to cause harm is a tiny fraction of that of a car. Also, we can't get tickets that raise our car insurance premium. Wheeeee!!!

"Also, we can't get tickets that raise our car insurance premium" Therein is the real reason for many cyclists doing it - not because it makes sense (a lot of the time it doesn't) but because there are no consequences. There's no licensing, registration or insurance to cycle on the roads. Many cyclists, and I cycle too, behave accordingly with no consideration for other road users, or pedestrians. Hence many cyclists…

"not because it makes sense (a lot of the time it doesn't) but because there are no consequences"

But it does make sense a lot of the time. The lack of consequences is a contributing factor for this.

Car 'ownership' of the roads is debatable: http://www.roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/

Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights

#68

Post by joncrocks »

_pmf_ wrote: post #6
jeffwass wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed 100%. I live in London too. As a pedestrian, irresponsible cyclists have really pissed me off to no end. Many cyclists have an attitude of entitledness, which makes them a great danger to the rest of us pedestrians. Not all cyclists are like this mind you, but it's enough of a population that I second-guess most cyclists wil follow rules of the road. To put into perspective - when you're driving and you have a…

> Many cyclists have an attitude of entitledness, which makes them a great danger to the rest of us pedestrians. Isn't the reasoning for the proposal that allowing bikes this special treatment of stop signs and red lights would incite them to use the road instead switching to the sidewalk (to be faster)? I.e., yes, bikers might be entitled, but the suggestion would also benefit pedestrians.

In the UK (where I think the poster is from), it's already illegal for cyclists to cycle on a pavement (sidewalk) next to a road. I think.

His experiences are with cyclists flouting the existing laws when they travel on the road.

Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights

#69

Post by lorenzhs »

mc32 wrote: post #38

I'm curious about what Germans think of this, since people look a pedestrian askance if you don't wait for the light. As an occasional cyclist I'm of two minds. On the one hand, having too many stop signs along a roadway gets annoying so mentally one wants to simply slow down and look and if no cars have the right of way at the time, go through. The danger is that this behavior gets modified to a default of riding th…

German here. The accusing looks are a thing but it's mostly old people in my experience. In cities with lots of young people it's quite common to just cross the road when traffic permits. Having lived in the UK though I feel like I should also say that it doesn't go that far ;-)

Your comment about exercise assumes that everyone rides for - well - exercise, but that's not generally true here. For example, students rarely own a car here, most cycle. I'm not a student any more and still don't have a car. Not because I couldn't afford it, but because I just don't need it (there's a good car sharing offering in my city for the rare occasions where I do need one). I do nearly everything by bike, from getting to work or around in the city to groceries. When cycling about with 20kg of stuff strapped to my bike, exercise is usually not what I'm looking for :-)

Oh and there are a lot less stop signs here than in the US, at least the parts of it that I've driven in (DC area). Traffic planning accounts for cyclists as well here, so long stretches of road without having to stop are much more common. We even have a bunch of Fahrradstrassen in my city - roads where cyclists have priority (cars only allowed if there's a sign permitting them)

Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights

#70

Post by hermannj314 »

imgabe wrote: post #59

> Drivers might be angrily remembering the last biker they saw flout the law, wondering when traffic police will finally crack down and assign some tickets. How about the laws where drivers have to maintain a minimum distance from cyclists? If I ever see that law enforced, I might start giving a shit about other traffic laws. Running lights allows me to get a head start on traffic and hopefully get to the next light/…

I had someone do this me between stop signs and then he had to slam on his brakes since he barely had time to get around me. I then proceeded to follow him for the next few blocks because a car isn't that much faster than a bike in these situations.

People in cars hate being slowed down. Some, I hear, even get violent. There is a patience I learned moving through my city at 15 mph. I wish more people appreciated it.

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