Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights
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Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights
#2Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights
#3I think an actually safer thing to do would be to give cyclists the right of way. Then drivers could at least take for granted that cyclists are going to not stop for red lights or stop signs.
Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights
#4This isn't just a to protect the cyclists from being hit by cars, but to protect pedestrians from being hit by cyclists.
I'm sorry but my experience of living in London in the past 4 years pretty much made me hate cyclists with passion.
I find them considerably more dangerous and pesky than cars, they simply ignore all rules whether it's not giving a flying duck about the red signal at a bike lane while pedestrians have the green light to cross the street, utterly ignoring no bikes allowed in the run/walk only paths in Hyde Park or by interchanging road, bike lane, sidewalk and even the crosswalk at will with nill consideration to pedestrians and a shitty attitude to boot.
I'm constantly buzzed off green lights (to me) by cyclists that cycle at high speeds because they could not be arsed to honor a red light, I've been hit by bikes more than once in these 4 years, and just over the weekend I've seen a guy on a rental metro bike hit a baby carriage (empty one as far as i could tell) in Hyde Park because they were in a no-bike zone and came out a turn which has no visibility whatsoever.
I really don't understand the level of self entitlement that cyclists seem to have and why they seem to have such a shitty attitude towards drivers and pedestrians alike. A bicycle rolling through a stop sign isn't any less dangerous than a car rolling through one, if anything a car is easier to spot than a bicycle and cars don't tend to have their visibility shuttered by driving between full lanes.
The reason why most countries do not allow roll through stop signs or at least heavily restrict them is that rolling through a stop sign sets the wrong behaviour pattern because once you get used to a stop sign you know you can roll over you aren't going to slow down to roll over speed you might simply slow down by a bit but not nearly enough to respond appropriately.
The same thing is going to happen to cyclists they'll get use to it and eventually get careless they won't give 2 ducks about the padestrians trying to cross the road with already ludicrously short light times and they'll take more and more risks as far as crossing the intersection goes.
Cyclists don't have mandatory insurance, they can hit anyone and do pretty hefty damage if it's at speed and good luck suing them for anything at least with cars in most countries you can always sue the insurance of the offending driver. Heck at this point I'm not even entirely sure if being hit by a bicycle in the UK constitutes a "road accident" so they might as well just take off and not give a flying duck about it, it happened to me got hit in the side I assume by the stem/handlebars at pretty high speed the cyclist didn't seem to give a shit at all and just wobbled a bit and continued on his way without even checking. It was a sharp pain but not bad enough however the night after half my side was purple if it would be a bit stronger or sharper hit I might've ended up pissing blood for 2 weeks.
Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights
#5How about no. Stop signs were designed to prevent people being hit by crossing traffic. This isn't just a to protect the cyclists from being hit by cars, but to protect pedestrians from being hit by cyclists. I'm sorry but my experience of living in London in the past 4 years pretty much made me hate cyclists with passion. I find them considerably more dangerous and pesky than cars, they simply ignore all rules wheth…
I live in London too. As a pedestrian, irresponsible cyclists have really pissed me off to no end.
Many cyclists have an attitude of entitledness, which makes them a great danger to the rest of us pedestrians.
Not all cyclists are like this mind you, but it's enough of a population that I second-guess most cyclists wil follow rules of the road.
To put into perspective - when you're driving and you have a green light, you generally assume cars approaching the red light orthogonally will slow down and respect the stop signal. Now imagine the situation where you cannot assume this and at every intersection you go through, you assume a car will ignore their traffic light. That's what it feels like to be a pedestrian around cyclists in London.
Quite too often cyclists will plow through zebra crossings (crosswalks for you USA folks, where pedestrians have full right of way). Even if you're in the middle already.
A cyclist once came at full speed within inches of my daughter's pushchair (stroller) when we were in the middle of the zebra crossing, and when I loudly said "what the heck" at the guy. He turned back and screamed very loudly "Fuck You", in front of my daughter.
Similarly just the other day a cyclist came through a zebra crossing at full speed about a foot away from me. I again said "what the heck" and he responded loudly "oh, Fuck Off".
A few intersections have cyclists that regularly come through when pedestrians have the green man signal.
It's pretty ridiculous.
Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights
#6How about no. Stop signs were designed to prevent people being hit by crossing traffic. This isn't just a to protect the cyclists from being hit by cars, but to protect pedestrians from being hit by cyclists. I'm sorry but my experience of living in London in the past 4 years pretty much made me hate cyclists with passion. I find them considerably more dangerous and pesky than cars, they simply ignore all rules wheth…
Agreed 100%. I live in London too. As a pedestrian, irresponsible cyclists have really pissed me off to no end. Many cyclists have an attitude of entitledness, which makes them a great danger to the rest of us pedestrians. Not all cyclists are like this mind you, but it's enough of a population that I second-guess most cyclists wil follow rules of the road. To put into perspective - when you're driving and you have a…
Isn't the reasoning for the proposal that allowing bikes this special treatment of stop signs and red lights would incite them to use the road instead switching to the sidewalk (to be faster)? I.e., yes, bikers might be entitled, but the suggestion would also benefit pedestrians.
Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights
#7Slowing down as you approach the stop sign, scanning the full 360 degrees around the intersection (which, unlike cars, cyclists are able to do easily and quickly), being prepared to stop if necessary, but continuing on through if there's no reason to do so, is perfectly safe.
I'd make the analogy thusly: as a cyclist coming to a stop sign, I've got to come to a stop, get off my seat and set foot on the ground, remount, then get going again from a standstill. When you're doing this every few blocks--which is not at all uncommon when biking in the city--it gets extremely frustrating. As a car driver, imagine if you had to come to a complete stop at a stop sign, turn off the ignition, then restart the car and continue on your way. It feels like the same thing. (edit: used more clear terminology)
Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights
#8How about no. Stop signs were designed to prevent people being hit by crossing traffic. This isn't just a to protect the cyclists from being hit by cars, but to protect pedestrians from being hit by cyclists. I'm sorry but my experience of living in London in the past 4 years pretty much made me hate cyclists with passion. I find them considerably more dangerous and pesky than cars, they simply ignore all rules wheth…
Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights
#9Although the article alluded to studies that show this approach is safer it didn't bother to cite any. Here's one based on results when the law passed in Iowa: http://docplayer.net/1126976-Meggs-jason-n-stops-harm-bikes-... Slowing down as you approach the stop sign, scanning the full 360 degrees around the intersection (which, unlike cars, cyclists are able to do easily and quickly), being prepared to stop if necess…
For an experienced, physically fit cyclist, riding in good conditions? Perhaps.
For a younger and less experienced cyclist, with less strength, riding in a noisy area while it's raining? Not so much.
There is always a danger in discussions about road traffic laws of assuming -- consciously or otherwise -- ideal conditions and skillful drivers/riders. However, those people were much less likely to have an accident already.
I'd make the analogy thusly: as a cyclist coming to a stop sign, I've got to come to a stop, dismount, remount, then get going again from a standstill.
What kind of bike are you riding if you have to dismount every time you stop?!
Maybe it's a national or cultural thing, but to me (based in cycle-filled Cambridge, UK) that idea is crazy and any bike where it was true would be very bad for riding on the road.
There is certainly a real problem with road design that causes stop-start behaviour for cyclists. We most often see this here when looking at shared use cycle paths along pavements (sidewalks) set back from the road: it's an idea that sounds cycle-friendly, but in reality those paths don't have priority at junctions with side roads while the main road does, meaning for any cyclist competent and confident enough to ride at closer to normal traffic speeds, the shared use paths are not a useful alternative to on-road cycling.
However, I think this article is far too quick to gloss over legitimate concerns about whether cyclists really can judge when it's safe to traverse a junction against a red light or stop line. Again, it's possible that the uses for these tools are different here in the UK -- we use stop lines quite rarely for example, often precisely because a junction doesn't give a sufficient view on approach to enter it without stopping to check first. But I see examples almost daily of cyclists running red lights and in doing so causing disruption to pedestrians and other road users who were trying to cross the junction properly. And yes, tragically, sometimes cyclists do get seriously injured or killed doing so.
I also think the article was too quick to gloss over the argument that on the same road, the same rules should apply to everyone. Of course it can't literally be true in cases like road space reserved for certain classes of traffic. However, I would argue that creating a "them and us" culture between cyclists and motor traffic is dangerous, because in reality, breeding resentment for cyclists who ride as if they own the road does make a significant number of motor vehicle drivers more aggressive toward them. I think the roads are safer places when road users respect each other and act courteously -- when people voluntarily give way (yield) to help someone else make progress, slow down and give more space around vulnerable road users, and so on. If you lose that culture, then however in the right a cyclist might be legally, they're still going to be the one who ends up in hospital or worse if their riding antagonises people driving several tonnes of fast-moving metal who then get frustrated and make a mistake or simply don't yield when a cyclist expected them to as a courtesy but the law doesn't actually require it.
None of this is to say that current laws are ideal or we shouldn't change them if the data warrants it. I strongly believe that road safety policy should be evidence-based. I'm just not sure this article has made that case, at least not in a way that would apply on the roads around here.
Re: Why cyclists should be able to roll through stop signs, ride through red lights
#10Seems like TFA is an opinion piece and cites no research on actual safety. It alludes to one reason this is good: getting the cyclist out of the intersection, and therefore greater danger, sooner. Another good reason might be to make cyclists' behavior more predictable. As is, you never know which type of rider you are going to get, so you can't make assumptions. I think an actually safer thing to do would be to give…
I usually stop behind the lead car at traffic lights to avoid this; I can usually keep pace with cars (in London) but flaunting this by trying to race them away from the lights is just asking for trouble, not to mention more physically taxing.
So... if I'm on the front of a queue and can safely move away before the lights turn green, I'll do it because it puts distance between myself and the lead car, giving the driver more time to line up a safe manoeuvre around me once the traffic starts moving.
This has to be weighed up against the very real danger that the drivers will be fuming with rage at the arrogant cyclist in front and thus losing the senses of calm and serenity that I'm trying to spread :-)