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Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

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Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#61

Post by dpark »

gpm wrote: post #27
unprepare wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wouldnt the libertarian reaction to emissions be to sue the emitter for the lowered quality of air?

In a perfect court system where the overhead of a lawsuit is 0, sure, that would be an acceptable outcome. In reality that's not the case, and there is no overarching principle any sect of libertarians hold (as far as I know) that harm can only be addressed via lawsuits. Since the overhead of lawsuits grows ridiculously large when the number of plaintiffs is equal to the population of the country (or even world), the…

I believe the Libertarian party stance is that such damages should be addressed via lawsuits.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#62

Post by sinxoveretothex »

pininja wrote: post #52

What are the by-products of manufacturing and maintaining batteries and solar panels? I'd like to learn more about the inputs and outputs, then maybe I can learn a better comparison between fossil fuels and solar. What are we transforming in order to create, store, and consume solar energy and fossil fuel energy?

You would want to look at lifecycle analysis studies (here's a few [1][2]). The big problem with fossil fuel is that it takes fuel to extract new fuels (high cost sources like tar sands have a ratio of like 1 fuel unit used to extract 2) AND they have a cost for each unit of power generated. Most renewables (excluding biofuels for example), have a manufacturing cost, but little to no energy generation cost (solar and wind have none, hydropower basins have something like 1/1000th the emissions of coal).

[1] http://phys.org/news/2014-10-first-ever-global-life-renewabl...

[2] http://www.nrel.gov/analysis/sustain_lca_results.html

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#63

Post by sinxoveretothex »

bhhaskin wrote: post #56
pininja wrote: post #52

What are the by-products of manufacturing and maintaining batteries and solar panels? I'd like to learn more about the inputs and outputs, then maybe I can learn a better comparison between fossil fuels and solar. What are we transforming in order to create, store, and consume solar energy and fossil fuel energy?

Whats worse is the waste left over after a battery is past it life span.

Not for Musk's Tesla at least:

https://www.tesla.com/blog/mythbusters-part-3-recycling-our-...

https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycl...

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#64

Post by nickff »

jimmytidey wrote: post #28
elgabogringo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. It's an argument for indirect subsidies to his company on top of the direct subsidies he already receives. Elon Musk is hardly a libertarian. He's just another crony capitalist.

Obviously you can question his motives, however this is not an indirect subsidy if you consider the emission of carbon dioxide an externality - which I presume he does. Instead it would represent the levelling of the playing field. Oil companies do get direct subsidies through tax breaks, so no mater what you think is going on here, energy is not pure market. In practise, how often do you see a pure market anyway?

Something can be an indirect subsidy and a Pigouvian tax at the same time; they are non-exclusive options. I see the carbon tax as both, and am opposed to both.

There are no 'pure market[s]', and there never have been. The 'pure market' was a straw-man invented by anti-market people.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#65

Post by dpark »

merpnderp wrote: post #53
justinhensley wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe in global warming/climate change?

How about the Earth is warming, we don't know by how much, but likely not nearly as much as we previously thought, and we are missing crap tons of data and understanding about how different systems work. https://home.cern/about/updates/2016/05/cloud-shows-pre-indu...

> How about the Earth is warming, we don't know by how much, but likely not nearly as much as we previously thought

This is a bold claim completely unsupported by your link.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#66

Post by fweespeech »

nickff wrote: post #20
mikecb wrote: post #4

Coase, Pigou, all these ideas are fairly libertarian, just like other forms of property rights are, and externalities like pollution can be thought of as a form of trespass.

Pigouvianism is inherently intolerant and totalitarian, not libertarian, as it relies on imposing one's value judgements on others. Using a tax to force compliance rather than more draconian restrictions may be 'nicer', but is not Liberty.

> Using a tax to force compliance rather than more draconian restrictions may be 'nicer', but is not Liberty.

So if I reduce the value of your land by rendering it a desert over a period of years, I am simply exercising my liberty?

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#67

Post by nickff »

tmaly wrote: post #2

I would expect him to make any argument he can against fossil fuels. He is heavily invested in solar technology.

Musk has a history of using any available argument to advocate taxing/banning his competition; he has no intellectually consistent ideology. I say this as someone who believes SpaceX is the most important company founded since 1980, that humans must go to Mars, and will probably do it on Musk's MCT/BFR.

On the Tesla side, Musk has advocated subsidies for electric vehicles, taxes, caps, and other limits on gasoline/Diesel vehicles. He has argued that fuel cells are a dead end, and governments should stop supporting them.

On the SpaceX side, Musk has advocated open competitions for NASA, USAF, and NRO launches, but also encouraged the government to ban the use of foreign engines and rockets.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#68

Post by nickff »

fweespeech wrote: post #66
nickff wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pigouvianism is inherently intolerant and totalitarian, not libertarian, as it relies on imposing one's value judgements on others. Using a tax to force compliance rather than more draconian restrictions may be 'nicer', but is not Liberty.

> Using a tax to force compliance rather than more draconian restrictions may be 'nicer', but is not Liberty. So if I reduce the value of your land by rendering it a desert over a period of years, I am simply exercising my liberty?

You may be committing a tort or trespass, depending on how you do it.

There are a great many works on this type of issue, and if you are looking for a complete answer, I suggest you read them. If you are trying to 'catch me out', your rhetoric won't convince me, nor is it likely to convince anyone else.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#69

Post by merpnderp »

dpark wrote: post #65
merpnderp wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about the Earth is warming, we don't know by how much, but likely not nearly as much as we previously thought, and we are missing crap tons of data and understanding about how different systems work. https://home.cern/about/updates/2016/05/cloud-shows-pre-indu...

> How about the Earth is warming, we don't know by how much, but likely not nearly as much as we previously thought This is a bold claim completely unsupported by your link.

"If ancient cloud cover was closer to today’s levels, the increase in the cloud-cooling effect due to human pollution could also be smaller—which means that Earth was not warming up so much in response to increased greenhouse gases alone. In other words, Earth is less sensitive to greenhouse gases than previously thought, and it may warm up less in response to future carbon emissions, says Urs Baltensperger of the Paul Scherrer Institute, who was an author on all three papers."

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/05/earth-s-climate-may-n...

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#70

Post by gpm »

dpark wrote: post #61
gpm wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a perfect court system where the overhead of a lawsuit is 0, sure, that would be an acceptable outcome. In reality that's not the case, and there is no overarching principle any sect of libertarians hold (as far as I know) that harm can only be addressed via lawsuits. Since the overhead of lawsuits grows ridiculously large when the number of plaintiffs is equal to the population of the country (or even world), the…

I believe the Libertarian party stance is that such damages should be addressed via lawsuits.

So, the party platform apparently opposes any government action on the issue. The reasoning seems to be more "it's not effective" than "the proper way to address it is lawsuits" though.

On the other hand I've seen Gary Johnson quotes like this one

> In 2016, as a candidate, Johnson talks about balancing the budget but lacks the zeal of libertarians who think the state could be cut in half without consequence. He’d keep Social Security for current retirees. He wouldn’t abolish the EPA, after learning in New Mexico how the government policed bad actors.

> “In the libertarian view, without the EPA, you as an individual could sue under the law,” said Johnson. “But not really. You don’t have deep pockets to go up against Chevron.”

From: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/is-libertarian-gary-...

Either way, good point.

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