Live data from Hacker News

Achievement Porn

petermichaud.com

61–70 of 122 posts

Re: Achievement Porn

#61

Trying to define what should be meaningful for other people is pretty arrogant and an insular perspective on life. My personal take on reality is that the whole shebang is a "meaningless treadmill", but I'm willing to accept that it might not be true for the next guy.

"Trying to define what should be meaningful for other people is pretty arrogant and an insular perspective on life." - I think this statement is lazy in that it's taking the cultural relativist approach. By this token, we shouldn't make judgment on female circumcision in Africa, or the one child rule in China. In their societies these practices have very important value but I think most of us probably feel like it's…

'"Trying to define what should be meaningful for other people is pretty arrogant and an insular perspective on life." - I think this statement is lazy in that it's taking the cultural relativist approach.'

And the funny thing is, such statements come off as absolutist claims about how other people should not be making absolutist claims. I mean, isn't it pretty arrogant to declare someone else, um, pretty arrogant? :)

It's hard to criticize someone for criticizing someone, or to judge people for judging people.

Re: Achievement Porn

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Trying to define what should be meaningful for other people is pretty arrogant and an insular perspective on life." - I think this statement is lazy in that it's taking the cultural relativist approach. By this token, we shouldn't make judgment on female circumcision in Africa, or the one child rule in China. In their societies these practices have very important value but I think most of us probably feel like it's…

What gives you the power to decide what is good and what isn't? People should define themselves by their own merits and what gives them the most utility.

What? Is someone claiming power over objective definitions of right and wrong? I hope you understand that just because right and wrong are subjective doesn't render the model useless. What if it just so happens that a lot of this marvelous "utility" that you mention comes about through a reasonable consensus on morality, brought about through persuasion?

Re: Achievement Porn

#63
post #18

Seneca wrote about this in _De Brevitate Vitae_ about 2,000 years ago, and unlike TFA, actually said it well. Those who do not study philosophy are condemned to blog mangled versions of it.

I've never heard of "De Brevitate Vitae", so TFA's blog-mangled version of it still seems useful. It also sparked this discussion on it.

Re: Achievement Porn

#64

Trying to define what should be meaningful for other people is pretty arrogant and an insular perspective on life. My personal take on reality is that the whole shebang is a "meaningless treadmill", but I'm willing to accept that it might not be true for the next guy.

"Trying to define what should be meaningful for other people is pretty arrogant and an insular perspective on life." - I think this statement is lazy in that it's taking the cultural relativist approach. By this token, we shouldn't make judgment on female circumcision in Africa, or the one child rule in China. In their societies these practices have very important value but I think most of us probably feel like it's…

The interesting thing about both of your examples, is that they themselves are both examples of people "defining what should be meaningful for other people." Female circumcision is a statement by a culture that sex should not be desired by girls. The one-child rule is a statement by a culture that quality of life for its existing members is more important than quantity of life for its hypothetical ones. In either case, individual members of the culture may disagree, but then will be forced to conform to the culture's mores anyway—that is what we find repulsive about those policies.

As long as, on an individual level, people are free to choose their own utility function (as long as that function doesn't stop other people from choosing and partaking in their utility functions), then nothing else really matters on a grand-er scale. To put it another way: "cultural relativism" is wrong, but only because there is theoretically a perfect culture that allows its individuals to have individual relativism of ethics with a minimum of friction between individuals. The best culture is the transparent one people don't define themselves in terms of.

Re: Achievement Porn

#65
post #60
post #35

See here's the thing, ragging on the education system is so overdone, such an easy target, such a bullshit "I wasn't the best so it didn't matter anyway" thing, that as soon as somebody does it in these inevitable articles, I tune out. Seriously, every time somebody in one of these articles tries to get their pseudo-philosophical think on about education or achievement or whatever, they dive straight for AND OF COURS…

Hold on, I'm not sure that's fair. Yes, everyone knows that school is insane, marijuana is safer than alcohol, you shouldn't have different tax treatment for corporate and individual health insurance, et cetera et cetera EXCEPT WE DON'T ALL KNOW THAT AND THEY'RE STILL DOING IT.

Perhaps we can just make an Encyclopedia of Common-yet-Dangerous Misconceptions, word it and print it up to look, and have the status cues of, a religious text (but also with convincing info-graphics and cites), and distribute them like phonebooks door-to-door?

Re: Achievement Porn

#66
Very interesting. These two articles explain a few things for me:

1. Why I can't ever seem to get into video games (or games in general).

2. Why the hobbies I do enjoy use skills that are difficult to acquire and take a lot of effort to master.

3. Why we have such a hard time motivating our son to practice viola and stick to martial arts. Most of the reward he's heard over the years has come in the form of, "Wow, you're really smart." As a verbally gifted child, he has already acquired an expansive vocabulary that impresses adults. Zero effort for him; big payoff.

4. And, possibly, why our daughter seems to be acquiring skills at a faster clip than the boy does. She seems to have tapped into that other kind of reward, for effort. Makes me wonder if this has anything to do with the remarkably different response people have expressed to her verbal abilities, which is typically criticism.

If you're curious, both of our children play video games, but the boy is a great deal more "into" them than the girl. Where he will use up all of his computer time and beg for more, I've seen her go days without using the computer at all. Video games are a political hot button for parenting; like watching television, the kind of parent you are is open to public scrutiny based on how many hours per day you let your kid engage in the activity, or even at all.

You don't have to be a parent to see the value of achievement in habilitation, but it does help. I've met my share of 30-yr-old gamers who still live in their parents' basements. Personally, I believe that if my kids aren't independent by 20, I'll have failed as a parent. There is a real, deep joy that you get from looking at an object you have formed with your hands or the home you've made with your salary. Even if you just sit in a cubicle. We're wired this way for a reason, right? Otherwise we'd perish.

And it's not a bad idea to consider the concept of types of achievement. The advertising industry surely does. They feed us this tripe and most of us eat it without bothering to sniff it first.

Re: Achievement Porn

#67
I had read the first article already, and this one provided an interesting commentary. What struck me most, however, was the striking parallel it makes to a distant, hazily defined, mmo game that a friend and I talk about creating in our twilight years.

This game would simply be a massive simulation of a fantasy setting, replete with deep and meaningful (in an in-game sense) game-object detail, but which would offer no prefabricated achievement structure. The trick, as we see it, would be to actually get people to play this "game". Without any transparent and crudely imitable notion of "advancement", we doubt that anybody other than space cadets like ourselves would enjoy the game. Essentially, the game would be about being in the world and living there, and not about winning contests and completing quests. It is not as if there would not be things to do - quite the contrary, the player liberty might be overwhelming - too many people would ask: "What do I do in this game?" - translation: "how do I succeed here?"

Re: Achievement Porn

#68
Most "achievements" are ways to mark time until we die, and make us feel better about what we spent our lives doing up to that point. Whether they are artificial or perceived benchmarks or 'real' accomplishments is not as important as what we do after we think we've accomplished something, no matter how big (starting a company) or small (high score on Minesweeper, because there's always something else to 'achieve.' Achievement porn or success - the definition (and the embodiment) is up to you.

Re: Achievement Porn

#69

"Any achievement in a video game is a fake achievement" This is a great soundbite to build an essay around but ignores two decades of learning, cognitive, and psychological research. There are too many examples to try to pack into a comments, but among the most obvious: - 3D games are have been demonstrated to have positive effects on spatial perception and to allow rehearsal-based training for real-world activities…

How about : Any achievement the game rewards you for is a fake achievement.

Whenever I go up a level in WoW, or gain a kill in Quake, or beat a boss and pick up his loot I have a fake achievement.

Sure, there are some real achievements in there, but they are not provided by the game world - they are almost a side effect. Most likely they are not the reason that people are playing these games, but they are a useful excuse to continue playing.

Consider how much real achievement we would see if all the motivated hackers put down WoW and started up their development environment of choice.

I'm not saying that games aren't cool (I love computer games and have been strongly addicted in the past) but don't delude yourself into thinking that they are more productive than applying yourself directly to the task you are trying to master.

I might get HN points (i.e Karma) from posting this comment. That is not my goal, I don't care about those. My goal is to inspire fellow hackers enough to pay attention to my cool start-up (Gridspy). HN doesn't give me "pay attention to me" points - I don't think that is really possible.

Re: Achievement Porn

#70
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, climbing a mountain serves no purpose other than to say you've climbed a mountain. I climbed aboard a plane and got much higher than any mountain climber did on land, and I did it at a far more economical price. If you believe sitting in a cubicle is meaningless, then don't sit in a fucking cubicle, it's common sense . I can't stand office work, it's just something I cannot do because it feels like a laboriou…

Exactly right. Life is in fact devoid of meaning except for the meaning you choose to apply to it yourself. This includes playing computer games, spending time on facebook, climbing mountains or a career ladder and having a wife, children and a happy dog.

"What is the meaning of life?

It's up to you to define it."

Post reply on HN