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Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

nytimes.com

61–70 of 152 posts

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#61
post #21

Interesting how many people here think that the problem rests solely with Black/Hispanic students. I am a black software engineer. As I see it, there are systemic problems, as you can imagine. But one reason that may be missed here is that sometimes people get weary of being the "only black person in the room". So some of the students may be opting out simply because they want a more diverse workplace, and tech is ve…

> the "only black person in the room"

I can't begin to understand how it is an issue, and I'm black (and European). I don't care about the color or the sex of my coworkers. What difference does it make? you can't relate to white people? No the main issue is networking and going out of one's own "sphere" or microcosm.

> So some of the students may be opting out simply because they want a more diverse workplace

If they really like programming then they should worry about programming first and foremost, not how diverse is their environment. But maybe it's because of my upbringing, when I was the only black in a class of 30 students, I didn't have the time or any interest in worrying about the "blackness" of the classroom. I didn't have the time to worry about my tastes being "black" or white or whatever.

Do some people have it easier because they are white ? Sure, people trust their kin more, and you talking about being "only black person in the room" is in my opinion the expression of that fact. What is true for white people is also true for black people, it's human nature.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#62
post #21

Interesting how many people here think that the problem rests solely with Black/Hispanic students. I am a black software engineer. As I see it, there are systemic problems, as you can imagine. But one reason that may be missed here is that sometimes people get weary of being the "only black person in the room". So some of the students may be opting out simply because they want a more diverse workplace, and tech is ve…

@kamau - imagine how it was for the first indian or chinese in an totally white male company? how was it for when women started entering the workforce in the 60s/70s? Unfortunately such despicable racist attitudes are prevalent, perhaps widely.

But I would argue tech is a meritocracy - not perfect - but very much a meritocracy.

"Be the change you want".

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#63
post #62
post #21

Interesting how many people here think that the problem rests solely with Black/Hispanic students. I am a black software engineer. As I see it, there are systemic problems, as you can imagine. But one reason that may be missed here is that sometimes people get weary of being the "only black person in the room". So some of the students may be opting out simply because they want a more diverse workplace, and tech is ve…

@kamau - imagine how it was for the first indian or chinese in an totally white male company? how was it for when women started entering the workforce in the 60s/70s? Unfortunately such despicable racist attitudes are prevalent, perhaps widely. But I would argue tech is a meritocracy - not perfect - but very much a meritocracy. "Be the change you want" .

I don't have to imagine. I've been the first or only Black person in more than one company. I'm already the change I want. I'm just waiting for the rest of y'all (not necessarily you) to catch up.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#64

Why is it the responsibility of the companies to fix this? In the same way that it seems perverse that Apple is the one standing up to the USG on privacy, why do companies bear the moral responsibility for fixing social ills? The only way a company should be responsible for hiring underrepresented minorities is if there was a market inefficiency to be exploited. And even then, that's a responsibility to their shareho…

Companies don't bear any moral responsibilities - people do

Hiring managers and executives should use all of the tools at their disposal in the context of recruitment and hiring - including moral and ethical judgement.

Setting moral responsibilities aside - if you want to hire talented, passionate engineers like me, you will get serious about building teams with people from diverse backgrounds.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being downvoted because you're being a racist buffoon. Yes, there is genetic variation across traits, this is a fact. That said, we are all heavily influenced by our environments and to discount this incredibly formative factor of all human life is ridiculous. Culture, poverty, exposure to crime, and endless cycle of poor parenting, whatever it may be - there are a million things that can and DO get in the way…

Case in point right here. Somehow there is this big conspiracy where certain groups of people, unanimously across the world, across all of human time, do worse than other groups of people. The whole world is in on it, and we must fix it!

You know very, very little about the world and its inhabitants.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#66
post #6

It amazes me that "..they discovered that many black and Hispanic students, unlike white and Asian ones, had never heard of this type of interview and were unprepared for it..." How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? I think that statement encapsulates it. No only are the schools they are graduating from are woefully inadequate, and they are entering a highly competit…

I think that should be further specified. It's not just that culture matters, but cultural expectations and the environment that leads to.

See, I listen to a lot of rap, or "black music". And differences in taste aside, some of the stuff is REALLY complex. Look at Nas, Tupac, or even more recently, Kendrick Lamar. The sheer amount of detail these guys put into their art makes me feel bad about myself as a programmer. These guys work hard at their craft. But you know what, they're not coders.

But here's the thing, quoting Kendrick Lamars "Black Boy Fly": "The only way out the ghetto, you know the stereotype Shooting hoops or live on the stereo like top 40".

The reason why they're not programmers is the same reason why I'm not a rapper. Because I'm white AND asian, and I grew up with a computer instead of a boombox, that my friends coded and didn't rhyme. Not that I don't want to, or that I don't work at it, it's closed doors to me.

I'm fairly certain that black people from the neighbourhoods that I get my music from, walking into a coding interview, even if they've been trying to program for years, they'd be just as lost as me walking into a rap battle. It's not about how hard you work at it, or how hard you push at it. Social mobility takes commitment.

Or succinctly put from the same song " What am I to do when every neighborhood is an obstacle"

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#67
post #63
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@kamau - imagine how it was for the first indian or chinese in an totally white male company? how was it for when women started entering the workforce in the 60s/70s? Unfortunately such despicable racist attitudes are prevalent, perhaps widely. But I would argue tech is a meritocracy - not perfect - but very much a meritocracy. "Be the change you want" .

I don't have to imagine. I've been the first or only Black person in more than one company. I'm already the change I want. I'm just waiting for the rest of y'all (not necessarily you) to catch up.

Then you should know better than computing black:white ratios. How's that an issue? I too am a racial minority in my team and my color has never has been an issue. It becomes an issue if you consciously make it one (as you did ITT)

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#68
post #6

It amazes me that "..they discovered that many black and Hispanic students, unlike white and Asian ones, had never heard of this type of interview and were unprepared for it..." How could any programmer worth his/her salt would not know about a whiteboard interview? I think that statement encapsulates it. No only are the schools they are graduating from are woefully inadequate, and they are entering a highly competit…

This I really don't understand. All it takes is a simple Google search about "what can I expect in a software interview?" and you'll see right away the importance of whiteboard interviews for so many companies, especially when you are coming out of college. I don't how true the quote actually is, but for anyone, regardless of race, I feel like this is just basic due diligence if you want a job.

I've barely been to any career events at my school, and professors never mention about whiteboard interviews. My friends in CS don't discuss this either. I just learned right away when I did some basic research on job searching.

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#69
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what systemic problem though? I'm hearing systemic a lot and it's more often looking suspiciously like a way to create a ghost that can't be fought so let's throw more money at any and every program to make a show of it.

You know, the kind of systemic that kept them legally segregated until the sixties -- that is, their parents time, and de facto segregated until today. Or the kind of systemic that ensures their school districts are poorer and underfunded. Or the kind of systemic that ensures you take the middle of the road when a black guy in a hoodie walks towards you in the same sidewalk.

Having grown up in the Birmingham, Alabama public education system I can tell you segregation never really ended.

Sure there aren't signs designating black and white water fountains but just because something is not written on a sign or on the law books doesn't mean its not written in the consciousness of the people.

The biggest reason for this in my opinion is the historical obfuscation.

Sure, we kind of studied the Civil Rights movement but we never really learned about Dr. King's deeper message, only that he "had a dream", and then segregation ended and everything was "normal" after that.

It wasn't until years after graduating that I began reading Dr. King's speeches that and the underlying causes of the racial divisions finally made sense, allowing me to let go of the anger I had held from bad experiences related to the racial animosity.

http://kingencyclopedia.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/documentse...

Re: Why Tech Degrees Are Not Putting More Blacks and Hispanics into Tech Jobs

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being downvoted because you're being a racist buffoon. Yes, there is genetic variation across traits, this is a fact. That said, we are all heavily influenced by our environments and to discount this incredibly formative factor of all human life is ridiculous. Culture, poverty, exposure to crime, and endless cycle of poor parenting, whatever it may be - there are a million things that can and DO get in the way…

Case in point right here. Somehow there is this big conspiracy where certain groups of people, unanimously across the world, across all of human time, do worse than other groups of people. The whole world is in on it, and we must fix it!

It doesn't require a conspiracy. Those in power accumulate more power and exploit those with less power. That's human nature. Much power comes from technical leverage, and that's largely a historical accident. Read Guns, Germs, and Steel (or watch the tv version). It gets to the root of how technology happened, and how it gave some cultures a leg up.

Here's a precis:

In the area of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers (Iraq/Syria today), several species of grains grow natively - oats, barley, rye, etc. And several species of domesticatable large animals - sheep, horses, cattle - are also native. Very few animals can actually be domesticated.

Grains can be stored for a long time (years), but are hard to digest for humans. The accidental discovery of fermentation led to bread and beer. This gave the people living there a much more stable and high-quality food source than hunter-gathers. Improving the storage led to ceramics. Ceramics led to firing. Firing led to plaster, so they could also build much more durable structures. Experience with high heat fires led to smelting, alloying, and forging metal. The wealth these practices produced led to towns and then cities, and economic specialization - especially trained and well-equipped soldiers. Specialization led to writing, which created more wealth. Herding sheep and cattle, and riding horses, became practical and effective. The wealthy early kingdoms of the Middle East started conquering their neighbors and spreading their technologies.

Fast forward to the example of the Spanish conquistador Francisco Pizarro and the Incas. Pizarro had 160 or so men, with horses, swords, and guns. He completely destroyed a 5000 man Inca army. How? Technology. The Incas weren't stupid or weak, as you're suggesting. They were unprepared. The Incas didn't have horses or sophisticated metalworking - their environment didn't lead to those discoveries. The Spanish sword was the deadliest weapon in the world, the product of a couple thousand years of refinement. Their horses and mounted warfare techniques were the product of thousands of additional years of refinement. Europeans, of course, knew how to fight men on horseback. You build long spears and polearms, and train soldiers to stand their ground against the terrifying charge. The Incas didn't know that. They panicked, scattered, and were easily slaughtered.

They weren't stupid. They weren't weak. They were outgunned.

The Spaniards, of course, were smart as we are, by your concepts. Imagine what would happen if 160 fully armed armed modern soldiers, with the latest weapons, traveling in modern armored vehicles, encountered a 5000 man army of Spaniards with horses and swords?

It's all luck. It's all an accident of history. You're not either intellectually or morally superior to any other race.

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