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How the war on drugs creates violence

washingtonpost.com

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Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#61

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

cubano wrote: post #44

I just don't think many people realize just how much legal corporate and government "business" is created by the insane war on drugs, and I am convinced this is the reason why it continues. Like I mentioned before, I just spent 6 months in the deep bowels of the criminal justice system for drug possession here in Florida, and those observations have shaped this view. The cops, the judges, the lawyers on both sides (w…

You are absolutely right, and perhaps the most under reported effect of the war on any vice is that vice enforcement becomes just as lucrative. It's easier to bust someone for possession than reckless driving, assault, you know, things that have to be verified at the time of offense. It's not that the police, prosecutors, prison owners or lawmakers are bad people, they just deal with corrosive incentives. Just like drugs, drug crime enforcement is a cheap high that gets you to places you wouldn't likely be if you played by the boring rules.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#62

Post by JoeAltmaier »

sixQuarks wrote: post #55
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not happening in a vacuum. There's already problems with experimentation causing considerable public expense, exposure to danger and needless suffering. Anybody can give you an anecdote - I will resist posting mine since they are a dime a dozen.

You can say that about anything. Should the government stop people from eating junk food? from participating in dangerous sports activities? Why are drugs different?

Because, car accidents, child neglect, spouse abuse, healthcare, time lost to work...

Some of those other things are regulated as well. E.g. You can't rappel in many state parks, because idiots kept getting hurt and costing the state $$$ in rescue attempts to remote locations.

Its not all cruel government heedlessly restricting rights. That's an immature viewpoint. Count the cost and see that nothing is free.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#63

Post by will_brown »

cubano wrote: post #44

I just don't think many people realize just how much legal corporate and government "business" is created by the insane war on drugs, and I am convinced this is the reason why it continues. Like I mentioned before, I just spent 6 months in the deep bowels of the criminal justice system for drug possession here in Florida, and those observations have shaped this view. The cops, the judges, the lawyers on both sides (w…

A little more insight into Florida and street drugs vis-a-vis violence...In some places drugs dealers are sanctioned specifically to avoid an increase in violence.

Example, in Miami, FL, there is Grand Avenue, a historic street that could define "other side of the tracks", whereas Grand Avenue is a street where drug dealers openly hustle corners, but the road itself leads into Coconut Grove (an economic center in the heart of Coral Gables - a city where Miami athletes/celebrities/politicians call home). In fact the police commonly refer to dealers on Grand, almost endearingly, as Alligators. Because they just sit out on the corners all day soaking up sun and scuttle away when necessary. Ask any Coral Gables cop why they don't "shut down" the dealing on Grand Avenue, the response is, well when dealers can't make money with drugs they arm themselves and follow the road into Coconut Grove to commit robberies. As a result there is an unspoken agreement, Grand Avenue is the dealers' so long as there is no spill over into Coconut Grove. When times are good, in many of the drug neighborhoods in Miami not just off Grand Avenue, it is often said rich white people are the safest people in these neighborhoods because they are protected customers.

I am a criminal defense lawyer in South Florida, but its not exactly as you say, I don't have an interest in maintaining the laws as is. I assure you with different laws I wouldn't lose business, because there would be more lucrative work, namely legitimate business transactions (contracts, commercial leases, incorporation, etc...).

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#64

Post by bredren »

sixQuarks wrote: post #55
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not happening in a vacuum. There's already problems with experimentation causing considerable public expense, exposure to danger and needless suffering. Anybody can give you an anecdote - I will resist posting mine since they are a dime a dozen.

You can say that about anything. Should the government stop people from eating junk food? from participating in dangerous sports activities? Why are drugs different?

This sub-thread seems to be begging for an anecdote.

https://www.reddit.com/r/oakland/comments/3pf0xk/machete_wie...

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#65

Post by avn2109 »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #50
wz1000 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because the stuff used as illegal drugs is actually dangerous to health Recreational drugs are not inherently any more dangerous than the chemicals produced for medicinal use. They are the same kind of thing, recreational drugs just happen to be used for, well, recreation. Some recreational chemicals are even less dangerous than drugs you can get OTC. For example, LSD has a stellar safety record. There are no recor…

Recreational drugs typically get overused, to the point of toxicity. Just do a 'ride-along' with your emergency room nurse friend any weekend evening, and keep count of overdose cases - prescribed vs recreational.

Maybe that's because the recreational drug doesn't come with an MSDS/safe use documentation, because it was bought on the street.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#66

Post by nunyabuizness »

will_brown wrote: post #63
cubano wrote: post #44

I just don't think many people realize just how much legal corporate and government "business" is created by the insane war on drugs, and I am convinced this is the reason why it continues. Like I mentioned before, I just spent 6 months in the deep bowels of the criminal justice system for drug possession here in Florida, and those observations have shaped this view. The cops, the judges, the lawyers on both sides (w…

A little more insight into Florida and street drugs vis-a-vis violence...In some places drugs dealers are sanctioned specifically to avoid an increase in violence. Example, in Miami, FL, there is Grand Avenue, a historic street that could define "other side of the tracks", whereas Grand Avenue is a street where drug dealers openly hustle corners, but the road itself leads into Coconut Grove (an economic center in the…

Sounds like Hamsterdam from The Wire.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#67

Post by pstuart »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #51
sixQuarks wrote: post #48

Besides all of the stated reasons to legalize/decriminalize, I think just as important is personal liberty. I should be free to experiment with my own consciousness (so long as it does not impede on the rights of others) - how much more personal can you get? For the government to impede on this is unconscionable (pun intended).

This is not happening in a vacuum. There's already problems with experimentation causing considerable public expense, exposure to danger and needless suffering. Anybody can give you an anecdote - I will resist posting mine since they are a dime a dozen.

The war on drugs has never been about public safety - it's been about control on minorities. This is well documented.

Do drugs have risks? Of course. But as pointed out elsewhere, so does everything else. It's also very clear that any ostensible benefit from prohibition is easily outweighed by the crime and suffering caused by it.

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#68

Post by sixQuarks »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #62
sixQuarks wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can say that about anything. Should the government stop people from eating junk food? from participating in dangerous sports activities? Why are drugs different?

Because, car accidents, child neglect, spouse abuse, healthcare, time lost to work... Some of those other things are regulated as well. E.g. You can't rappel in many state parks, because idiots kept getting hurt and costing the state $$$ in rescue attempts to remote locations. Its not all cruel government heedlessly restricting rights. That's an immature viewpoint. Count the cost and see that nothing is free.

So that means you ARE for prohibition of alcohol. Read your last sentence: count the cost and see that nothing is free.

Do you think prohibition of alcohol had no costs? Same thing with drugs - which the article pointed out. The cost of keeping it illegal far outweighs the potential costs resulting from irresponsible users (which we still pay for even when it is illegal)

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#69

Post by cubano »

will_brown wrote: post #63
cubano wrote: post #44

I just don't think many people realize just how much legal corporate and government "business" is created by the insane war on drugs, and I am convinced this is the reason why it continues. Like I mentioned before, I just spent 6 months in the deep bowels of the criminal justice system for drug possession here in Florida, and those observations have shaped this view. The cops, the judges, the lawyers on both sides (w…

A little more insight into Florida and street drugs vis-a-vis violence...In some places drugs dealers are sanctioned specifically to avoid an increase in violence. Example, in Miami, FL, there is Grand Avenue, a historic street that could define "other side of the tracks", whereas Grand Avenue is a street where drug dealers openly hustle corners, but the road itself leads into Coconut Grove (an economic center in the…

Exactly.

In Orlando, it's Paramour and/or Orange Blossom Trail.

You hit the nail right on the head here..altho it's probably not just a Florida-thing and represents the utter hypocrisy and gamesmanship of the ridiculous war on drugs.

EDIT: So I see now you are a criminal defense lawyer so that is very interesting...may I ask what percentage of your business is derived from defending non-violent drug offenders?

Re: How the war on drugs creates violence

#70

Post by jamespo »

sixQuarks wrote: post #57
lighthawk wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so long as it does not impede on the rights of others This is really the crux of the problem. How do you suggest that you legalize all drugs and then keep people on those drugs from harming others? Public safety has a hard enough time without having to deal with some unknown number of additional people that would try drugs are harm themselves or others if those drugs were legal.

No, the crux of the problem is your line of thinking. The government cannot and should not replace personal responsibility. Your argument would mean that no one could drive a car or drink alcohol. Why are drugs different?

drugs aren't different to alcohol, but I'm sure you can appreciate they are different to cars
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