A 22-year-old anti-Nazi song tops German charts again – to welcome refugees • Hacker News Board

Re: A 22-year-old anti-Nazi song tops German charts again – to welcome refugees

#61

Post by jfaucett » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 1:15 PM UTC

There is so much media coordinated bull floating around in the EU and Germany right now it makes me sick. As a tax paying immigrant to Germany myself, I decided to look up the stats a little while ago and here's what the down and dirty actually looks like:

From 01.01.2015 until 31.07.2015 - we've gotten a total 195,723 Refugees, an estimated 500,000 will arrive for 2015.[1] Estimated costs will be around 5 Billion. For a comparison the Hartz 4 (Social Welfare System) had a total of about 32 Billion in 2013. [3]. Of all the refugees the majority come from Syria (~22%), and Irak / Afghanistan (~10%), which are countries with ongoing conflicts. [2] 39% of the refugees are coming from (Serbia / Kosovo / Macedonia / Albania), which have no listed ongoing conflicts according to wikipedia. The rest come from various countries the world over with around 1.7% from Nigeria and another 1.7% from Pakistan, which also both have ongoing conflicts.

So those are the facts, according to wikipedia and the BAMF (Office for Refugees and Immigration).

Now for the IMHO part :) The biggest problem currently with the whole thing is that we've known about this issue for a very long time [4], and no one prepared at all.

Even now nobody seems to have a plan about what to do with the refugees once they get here except give them food, housing, and living money, which personally I have no problem with as long as there is a plan to assimilate them into society, teach them german, get them jobs, etc. Why do I think some germans are upset? I think a lot of people have problems with the fact that this seems like another Hartz 4 type system where german tax dollars are going to pay for people who sit in the house all day and sponge off the system. Also, I think the media is just making this perception worse by showing thousands of refugees sitting around in camps or walking into Germany where they immediately get handouts. Also its easier to rationalize a Harz 4 system when its for "yourself" i.e. family or other native germans who have also paid money and hard work into the system. It becomes less and less easier to rationalize this goodwill when you're giving handouts to people from other european countries (yes, as a EU citizen you can get on german Harz 4 if you want), and even less still when the people don't aren't even part of the EU. At least thats what I think is actually going on here with the negative attitudes...

There are open commercials against "foreigner hate" but seriously who would have a problem with this if instead of those commercials they would just show the refugees getting jobs and starting to work?

References:

1. https://www.bamf.de/SharedDocs/Anlagen/DE/Downloads/Infothek...

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflict...

3. http://biaj.de/archiv-kurzmitteilungen/36-texte-biaj-kurzmit...

4. http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article132511959/Die-s...

Re: A 22-year-old anti-Nazi song tops German charts again – to welcome refugees

#62

Post by joeyspn » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 1:16 PM UTC

mineshaftgap wrote: post #39

joeyspn wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aligned? That's why they won't allow us Europeans to vote NO to TTIP and they have to discuss and approve it in secrecy. The citizens of Europe are not aligned with anyone. We've had enough with two WW.

Holy fuck people get confused. Exactly how are Americans stopping you from voting? You don't think Europe and the US are aligned? Hate can be blinding. Has a there ever been even a single EU candidate that ran on an anti-US platform? If not why not?

> Exactly how are Americans stopping you from voting?

Who said “Americans”? I’m just saying “they”, and “they” are the bribed politicians [0] (both in the US and Europe). “They” don’t want us to vote [1] because they know We (the citizens) are not aligned with everything that USA or ANYONE says and does.

> Hate can be blinding. Has a there ever been even a single EU candidate that ran on an anti-US platform?

LOL, who is telling you that being neutral is being anti-american? chillax dude. I’m just anti-war and anti-media-bullshit, like any libertarian able to read between the lines (even american ones [2]).

Get your facts straight.

[0] http://venturebeat.com/2015/09/04/creative-commons-founder-l...

[1] http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/09/ttip-biggest-th...

[2] http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/

Re: A 22-year-old anti-Nazi song tops German charts again – to welcome refugees

#63

Post by generic_user » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 1:17 PM UTC

moe wrote: post #27

generic_user wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is coordinated in the Press. The EU has its own Press agents that work with all Member state media and the international Press Including the USA. When the global press put a front page picture of a drowned Syrian Child on there covers it is a Coordinated release. Media Messaging is the bread and butter of the News Media. This story is part of Messageing to set the 'tone'.

The EU has its own Press agents that work with all Member state media and the international Press Including the USA. It really hurts to read this kind of drivel on HN. This is not how the press works. "The press" is not an uniform entity. This is not how any of this works. Please take your conspiracy theories elsewhere.

You should do some more research. It would be irresponsible if the EU did not have a large media apparatus. The reporting has been mixed. Some of it is overt and some covert such as direct funding for EU messaging campaigns concerning democratic referendums and so forth. 'Conspiracy Theory' is a bit of red herring in post Snowden age.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/culturehousedaily/2014/02/the-m...

Re: A 22-year-old anti-Nazi song tops German charts again – to welcome refugees

#64

Post by klibertp » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 1:18 PM UTC

quonn wrote: post #20

tiatia wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

400,- Euro plus your actual rent, plus free health insurance plus some other benefits. A value of around 1000 Euro. Working for 40 hours per week for 10 Euro (above the minumum wage) gets you 1600 Euro before taxes. After taxes you are close to the 1000 Euro you get for free. For 70-80% of the world population this sounds too good to be true. The Germans lost their minds...

> For 70-80% of the world population this sounds too good to be true. Not sure what you're getting at here. For most of the world population the situation in _any_ rich country sounds too good to be true. The fact is that these people are mostly refugees and they come because of unbearable situations at home, war, etc. _If_ they come to Germany, we will make sure that they can get access to health care, for the same…

The question is why do they insist on getting to Germany and Germany alone? Living in Poland, which is I think the second largest neighbour of Germany (after France) I have to wonder, why don't we see them staying here?

My SO works on immigration-related statistics and she says nearly 90% of immigrants who get to us and apply for refugee status immediately leave for other countries. Granting a war refugee status may take a while, but we provide them with food, clothes and shelter for the whole time. The conditions there are better than what most of our homeless can count on. We, of course, give them access to healthcare too. It may not be on the level of Germany, but it's there and I imagine, compared to Syria, it's still "too good to be true".

Most of the immigrants just won't stay here. I don't know why and no one really is asking this question in the media. I'd like to understand this. And please note: this is nearly exclusively about Middle East immigrants. We get some - not that many - immigrants from Ukraine, both refugees and economical immigrants, and most of them choose to stay here. Almost none of them decide to travel further West without first waiting for getting their formal refugee status recognized.

I'd really appreciate any insight into the reasons for this behaviour.

Re: A 22-year-old anti-Nazi song tops German charts again – to welcome refugees

#65

Post by leaveyou » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 1:26 PM UTC

Asbostos wrote: post #37

Has there ever been a case where a country received too many refugees and its economy deteriorated as a consequence? People provide labor which is what causes economic growth. They're the most valuable thing a country can have if it's not flooded with oil or similar natural resources. Of course there may be a lag as skills don't match demand, but that'll close up over time.

The high unemployment rate in EU seems to indicate no real need of labor. Quite the opposite. The constant pressure to reduce welfare and unemployment benefits spending indicates no availability to take in more medium term benefit receivers. The new immigrants coming from Africa and other less sophisticated economies are way less likely to find jobs in a EU economy which is more and more automated and high tech.

Re: A 22-year-old anti-Nazi song tops German charts again – to welcome refugees

#66

Post by danbruc » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 1:39 PM UTC

klibertp wrote: post #64

quonn wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For 70-80% of the world population this sounds too good to be true. Not sure what you're getting at here. For most of the world population the situation in _any_ rich country sounds too good to be true. The fact is that these people are mostly refugees and they come because of unbearable situations at home, war, etc. _If_ they come to Germany, we will make sure that they can get access to health care, for the same…

The question is why do they insist on getting to Germany and Germany alone? Living in Poland, which is I think the second largest neighbour of Germany (after France) I have to wonder, why don't we see them staying here? My SO works on immigration-related statistics and she says nearly 90% of immigrants who get to us and apply for refugee status immediately leave for other countries. Granting a war refugee status may…

One thing I read once was that one of the most important factor for where to seek asylum is where there already is a significant community from the home country. According to that article there are also some nationalities that just pass through Germany because there are no established community of those nationalities.

And of course when you already fleet a long distance why wouldn't you cross one more border if it likely improves your situation even if the other country already provides decent support? Nowhere do small differences matter that much as at the lower end of society.

Re: A 22-year-old anti-Nazi song tops German charts again – to welcome refugees

#67

Post by weland » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 1:45 PM UTC

leaveyou wrote: post #30

Squarel wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think it is better that Turkey shoulders 1.6m extra inhabitants, while Europe gets all excitable about a few hundred thousand?

As a neighbor and active participant to the destabilization of Syria, yes Turkey should shoulder the consequences. Those people have to return to their homes after the war and not wander in a hostile Europe where they can't integrate.

Arguably, at least NATO countries should shoulder some of those consequences as well. ISIS didn't just spring out of the ground.

Re: A 22-year-old anti-Nazi song tops German charts again – to welcome refugees

#68

Post by leaveyou » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 1:49 PM UTC

moe wrote: post #41

leaveyou wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/25/angela-merkel-visit-asylum-shelter-attacks The government has announced a relaxing of the Dublin agreement, under which refugees are supposed to be sent back to the country in which they entered the EU to apply for asylum. Many war refugees, particularly from Syria, were being sent back to Italy and Greece. Germany has now said it will process the majority of such claims. Merkel’…

The pair called for a unified EU-wide response including fair distribution of refugees across Europe. We must pursue a European asylum, refugee and migration policy that is founded on the principle of solidarity and our shared values of humanity I don't understand. Which of your quotes "encouraged immigrants to come"? "There is no tolerance for those people who question the dignity of others, no tolerance for those w…

I provided the context and now you argue about the context instead of the main point: Merkel was sending positive messages to mobs of people who were trespassing borders of multiple EU and non-EU countries causing chaos. Refugees or immigrants, illegal immigration is still ILLEGAL. Merkel and her government directly and/or indirectly encouraged illegalities against other countries instead of discouraging them by guiding the real refugees to the legal channels of asylum request. I don't like your way of debating. I stop here. Have a nice day.

Re: A 22-year-old anti-Nazi song tops German charts again – to welcome refugees

#69

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 1:51 PM UTC

moe wrote: post #59

generic_user wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Merkel has been playing out her Imigration dramas for years now (along with the EU). I am not very compeled to to dig up storys they are numerous and well known. Perhaps one of Her most melodramatic epasodes was "Islam 'belongs to Germany'". That will perhaps be here defining Utterance for better or worse. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/12/us-germany-islam-m...

And there we have your true colors.

[deleted]

Re: A 22-year-old anti-Nazi song tops German charts again – to welcome refugees

#70

Post by generic_user » Sat, Sep 05, 2015, 1:51 PM UTC

moe wrote: post #59

generic_user wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Merkel has been playing out her Imigration dramas for years now (along with the EU). I am not very compeled to to dig up storys they are numerous and well known. Perhaps one of Her most melodramatic epasodes was "Islam 'belongs to Germany'". That will perhaps be here defining Utterance for better or worse. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/12/us-germany-islam-m...

And there we have your true colors.

I think its quite clear the call for immigrants is not 'bull shit' but a well known fact. The question is who it the Labyrinthine EU bureaucracy is responsible for this disastrous romantic policy?